Would 'The Savage Curtain' have been better...

[Praetor]

...if instead of Colonel Green, the 'villain' of Earth's past had been none other than Khan Noonien Singh? Not the real one, but an illusory one, taken from Kirk's mind, and played once again by Ricardo Montalban, natch.

Personally, I think it would have resonated more with the audience, rather than being someone who has never developed any significance in the Trekverse other than on 'Enterprise' thirty-five years later. I only wonder if having it be Khan might have been distracting from the main plot?

Additionally, would someone other than Lincoln have been a better 'hero' choice?

For that matter, for those familiar with comics, what if this had been more like Marvel's 'Secret War' from the eighties? Various forces of good and evil, in this case, recreations of past and present, meeting to duke it out for the amusement of the Excalbians.

I'd be curious to hear everyone's 'wish list' of heroes and villains for this episode. Obviously each candidate should be someone who would have existed or have been in the history books in 1969, so no one from the later series. Would you tap previous 'guest villains' from the series to appear, or are there historical figures that you feel might have fit better?

 

[Vic Sixx]

It would have been interesting if the Excalbians had chosen
On the bad side: Rush Limbaugh, Pat Buchanan
On the good side: Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton

 

[Shatmandu]

They should have had Kirk stomping Tojo.

REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR!

Joe, never forgetting!

 

[Jeri]

I'd really hate to see Jim without shins.

 

[doctorwho 03]

Why just historical figures? How about some comic book superheroes? The sixties was when much of the Marvel Universe was created and many DC comics heroes had been around since the forties. Can you imagine the product placement opportunities if Star Trek did that.

I'd have Captain America duking it out with the Red Skull. Or Batman taking on Joker. Course that might conflict with the Batman series on at the time.

 

[Tan Ru]

It would have been interesting if the Excalbians had chosen
On the bad side: Rush Limbaugh, Pat Buchanan
On the good side: Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton

HA‼

THAT would be funny! I love the reversed juxtaposition!

 

[Shatmandu]

It would have been interesting if the Excalbians had chosen
On the bad side: Rush Limbaugh, Pat Buchanan
On the good side: Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton

But Jimmy Carter's a wee little shit. And Clinton's liable to get winded pretty quick.

Better to take Obama, since he looks like he knows kung-fu.

Add James Carville (who could ugly the bad guys to death) and you've got a winning ticket.

Joe, un-wee

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Good Team: James T. Kirk, Spock, Kahless the Unforgettable, and Nelson Mandela.

Evil Team: Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Khan Noonien Singh, and Commander Dolim from Star Trek: Enterprise's third season.

 

[Joemac]

good guys.kirk,spock,wyatt earp,Lt Col hal moore 101st airbourne calvary[see film " we were soldiers"] and Jet Li.bad guys:-khan,ghengis khan,rudolph hess,duras and napoleon

 

[Praetor]

Interesting suggestions all, so far. I think my original question of 'should they have reused Khan' got a bit lost in my OP though, as I haven't seen anyone respond to that.

Or do you all just think it's a bad idea?

 

[plynch]

...if instead of Colonel Green, the 'villain' of Earth's past had been none other than Khan Noonien Singh? Not the real one, but an illusory one, taken from Kirk's mind, and played once again by Ricardo Montalban, natch.

Personally, I think it would have resonated more with the audience, rather than being someone who has never developed any significance in the Trekverse other than on 'Enterprise' thirty-five years later. I only wonder if having it be Khan might have been distracting from the main plot?

Great idea. If they can bring back Mudd, why not?

 

[Gary7]

I realize that not all of the "enemy" characters could have a prominent role with spoken lines, but I really found "Zora" to be a useless character. Colonel Green was a good one... a future we wouldn't get to for some time, yet before Kirk's time. But yes, team him up with Khan, and you'd have a real zinger of an enemy to overcome.

Of course, you'd have to dispense with Ghenghis Khan, because the names are the same. In any case, Ghenghis Khan was a leader of a whole nation, not a field commander... I thought that was a bad choice for an enemy anyway.

As for heroes... again, Lincoln was a poor choice. He was not a battlefield commander, but a national leader. The Excalibans should have chosen General Douglas MacArthur or General George Patton!

 

[Myasishchev]

Interesting suggestions all, so far. I think my original question of 'should they have reused Khan' got a bit lost in my OP though, as I haven't seen anyone respond to that.

Or do you all just think it's a bad idea?

I dunno. It'd have been cool to have seen Khan again, but I don't know if I'd have wanted to see Fake Khan. It's all in the execution though, it could've been quite awesome.

Plus fwiw Khan is described as the best of tyrants. Surely we can find someone more evil.

I was always dumbfounded Adolf Hitler wasn't on the evil team. What, was it too soon?

I wonder what a 24th century Evil Four would look like. I'd have to assume the Female Changeling would be in the lineup, but God, how unfair would that be?

 

[steevo]

^ I agree. Khan on the evil side would not have worked unless Ricardo Montalban came back for the role.

I also find it interesting that (perhaps because no one knew that Trek would still be around years late) Kahless was portrayed as one of the most evil people in the galaxy "setting the patterns for his empire's tyrannies" while years later in TNG's "Rightful Heir" he was portrayed as a Jesus-type character for the Klingons come back to life.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

As for heroes... again, Lincoln was a poor choice. He was not a battlefield commander, but a national leader. The Excalibans should have chosen General Douglas MacArthur or General George Patton!

I didn't think Lincoln was a bad choice, but if you want to go with a field commander I would have gone with Lt General Ulysses S Grant, who was Lincoln's battlefield commander.

 

[Aquehonga]

RM back as Khan & being 1 of the baddies is a idea Like it!

Dunnough! Wets see heah

Goodies:
Dr. Benjamin Spock, General Patton {if n/a for some reason, then George C. Scott recreated to portray Patton for the battle}, Isaac Newton, Sarek, Shras

Baddies:
Kor, Vlad Tepes, Goebbels, Kodos, the Riddler {Frank Gorshin's}

I'm stumped now

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I was always dumbfounded Adolf Hitler wasn't on the evil team. What, was it too soon?

In-universe (and that's the premise under which I put my list together) it would have made a lot more sense to have Kirk battle Hitler, but in real world it would have made the episode even cheesier. As an episode, "The Savage Curtain" would have been considered to be the bastard child of "Spock's Brain" and "Patterns of Force".

 

[Timo]

...if instead of Colonel Green, the 'villain' of Earth's past had been none other than Khan Noonien Singh? Not the real one, but an illusory one, taken from Kirk's mind, and played once again by Ricardo Montalban, natch.

Khan was Kirk's hero in "Space Seed". He would have gone to the hero team, not the villain team. Sure, Kirk might have harbored some animosity towards him after "Space Seed" - but Khan's historical reputation was one of hero, not villain.

Of course, Genghis Khan is also seen as a hero, not a villain, by modern Mongols. And Lincoln is certainly a deeply despicable figure to some. But the point was about the heroes and demons in Kirk's mind specifically. If the Excalbians had somehow had an inkling of some sort of an "objective" definition of hero and villain, then they wouldn't have needed to do these silly experiments in the first place, now would they?

Kirk liked Khan Singh, and he liked Lincoln. Kirk hated Genghis and Kahless. That's very understandable - he was familiar with the first three from history writing, and American history (which Kirk often leans toward) praises Lincoln and vilifies Genghis, and might very well praise Khan Singh, too. Kahless in turn embodied Kirk's current enemies, the Klingons. Fine so far.

Was Sarek pulled from Spock's mind? He doesn't sound like a guy Kirk would like.

Perhaps Spock's mind also provided the image of Zora, as it doesn't sound like Kirk would bother with alien villainesses when his native background provided plenty of crooks.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Andorian Spy]

It would have been interesting if the Excalbians had chosen
On the bad side: Rush Limbaugh, Pat Buchanan
On the good side: Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton

Wow ... is that a mirror universe version? (ha ha) There's like NO brainpower on the Demmy side - Kirk and Spock would go down fast!

I LOVE the idea of using Kahn, though maybe it would have distracted from the main thrust of the story a bit? The Khan character was larger than life.

I also liked Col. Greene a lot ... so unctuous! And the interplay with Shatner really worked well. Shatner just rules.

SIDENOTE:

I've been watching a boatload of Hawaii Five-O lately - both the Col. Greene guy and Surak did episodes! Surak did two, just a few episodes apart (they altered his comb over).

Col. Greene acted differently, but the Surak guy acted like Surak - the same inflection, etc.

Actually, Hawaii Five-O featured some more Trek people - there's Shat's season five appearance (which is great, but not as good as his turn in Six Million Dollar Man), and Elaan or Troyus was in the first season! She looked hot.

Are there any others? I'd love to know.

 

[plynch]

As for heroes... again, Lincoln was a poor choice. He was not a battlefield commander, but a national leader. The Excalibans should have chosen General Douglas MacArthur or General George Patton!

Yeah, but "Savage" is "the-one-with-Abraham Lincoln," and I think the writer and actor do a nice job of making him a real person.

MacArthur?! Who violated the chain of command, did what he wanted, and wanted to a-bomb China? Oh, yeah, I guess you're right, Kirk woulda loved him!