Star Trek Fundamentalism

[trevanian]

no ,
part of the point is what part of canon do you follow when there are some stark contradictions within it.

You go with what makes the most sense and stick with it. But what is the point to arguing this as a merit of doing a reboot.


Except that isn't what's being done here, because basically only the names are the same. And as for the "spirit of Star Trek" - no one can agree what that even is, so the point is moot.


Actually, yeah, I'd qualify the rant you opened this thread with as a hissy hit, "chum".


Gee, really?


Oh, I see, so you're going to argue semantics with me when it's really obvious that I mean to say a TOS-era movie should actually be made to resemble that era, instead of completely redoing everything.


He's just using the names.


He's making another sci-fi remake movie, Just like The Day the Earth Stood Still and so many others before it and that are coming up in the near future.


No, his movie is set in a rebooted version of the universe we were shown in TOS and onwards.

And I don't care about all this "alternate timeline" stuff. It makes my ass hurt.

Blame the people making this movie for that, because it's their line of bullshit. Really it's just a weak attempt to placate the fans into accepting their in-universe reboot.

Christ on a crutch - my kids make less noise than you.

If you quit holding their noses and mouths shut, they'll make more noise.

 

[3D Master]

A split in fandom is upon us it seems to me.

1) There are those who, no matter what, will denounce this film as divisive, destructive and evil. They agitate, they snipe, they cry rape.

I despise them, they sicken me, they killed Trek.

2) There are those who welcome a new beginning and a chance to what a fresh perspective will bring to the franchise. They are what Trek is about, they are open minded and willing to give it a chance.

I love these guys, they are Trek.

The irony inherent in the juxtapostion of my own position is obvious but I'll press on anyway.

Those whom I despise have had this coming for years and I'm laughing my socks off at them - they like to tell us what Trek is, they like to tell us that Voyager was worth watching week in and week out, they like to keep Trek as a dirty little secret moulded in their own image, increasingly inward looking and obsessed with it's own belly button rather than scanning the horizon and seeking out new life and new civilisations. A few thousand zealots ruined a casual audiences enjoyment of Trek and it all it could have been, the casual audience watched it because it was good and not inward looking and not concerned about something that might have happened in an episode 20 years previously. The zealots did this to Trek, they were responsible for it's decline and death. These cretins forgot Trek is a business too and that it needs Joe Public to watch it as well, they disenfranchised the millions who kept it going by watching it and bringing in the advertising revenue and sales of the product around the globe.

And do you know what really pisses the Zealot's off?

The studio is not listening to them any more, no more letter writing campaigns that are noted, no more 'leaks' from the cast over plot details not to their liking and no more making a film for a few lonely people hiding in their cellars.

I love that, I can't tell you how amusing I find this.

Except of course for that annoying problem that the people who went "Yay, Voyager!" and "Yay, Enterprise!" and were defending it to the death, are now the people who are going, "Yay, new movie!" and are defending it to the death.

The people however, who went, "Voyager, sucks" and "Enterprise is even worse of the same", are the ones who are now telling you, this movie is an even bigger pile of shit than Voyager and Enterprise were combined.

Everything that needed changing didn't get changed, and everything that was just right and didn't need any change, gets changed. Making this new movie everything you hated about Voyager and Enterprise, but now with added Star Wars suckitude.

 

[Gepard]

The people however, who went, "Voyager, sucks" and "Enterprise is even worse of the same", are the ones who are now telling you, this movie is an even bigger pile of shit than Voyager and Enterprise were combined.

Except for those of us--and I'm one of them--who said "Boo, Voyager!" and "Boo, Enterprise!" and now say "Yay, new movie!"

So this statement is right on target, except for being totally wrong.

Everything that needed changing didn't get changed, and everything that was just right and didn't need any change, gets changed. Making this new movie everything you hated about Voyager and Enterprise, but now with added Star Wars suckitude.

I need some quick cash--do you also have next week's winning lottery numbers?

 

[trevanian]

The people however, who went, "Voyager, sucks" and "Enterprise is even worse of the same", are the ones who are now telling you, this movie is an even bigger pile of shit than Voyager and Enterprise were combined.

Except for those of us--and I'm one of them--who said "Boo, Voyager!" and "Boo, Enterprise!" and now say "Yay, new movie!"

So this statement is right on target, except for being totally wrong.

Everything that needed changing didn't get changed, and everything that was just right and didn't need any change, gets changed. Making this new movie everything you hated about Voyager and Enterprise, but now with added Star Wars suckitude.

I need some quick cash--do you also have next week's winning lottery numbers?

It's not 'totally wrong' at all ... the most vociferous defenders (you know, the ones who average 20 posts per day for years and years) ARE the ones who seem hellbent on defending Paramount's interests by sniping those offering dissenting views, and they seem to do so regardless of the quality of the product.

 

[pookha]

The people however, who went, "Voyager, sucks" and "Enterprise is even worse of the same", are the ones who are now telling you, this movie is an even bigger pile of shit than Voyager and Enterprise were combined.

Except for those of us--and I'm one of them--who said "Boo, Voyager!" and "Boo, Enterprise!" and now say "Yay, new movie!"

So this statement is right on target, except for being totally wrong.

Everything that needed changing didn't get changed, and everything that was just right and didn't need any change, gets changed. Making this new movie everything you hated about Voyager and Enterprise, but now with added Star Wars suckitude.

I need some quick cash--do you also have next week's winning lottery numbers?

It's not 'totally wrong' at all ... the most vociferous defenders (you know, the ones who average 20 posts per day for years and years) ARE the ones who seem hellbent on defending Paramount's interests by sniping those offering dissenting views, and they seem to do so regardless of the quality of the product.

sorry...
some of the people most hating on this movie also liked enterprise..
things are just not simple around here.

 

[Rii]

The people however, who went, "Voyager, sucks" and "Enterprise is even worse of the same", are the ones who are now telling you, this movie is an even bigger pile of shit than Voyager and Enterprise were combined.

Except for those of us--and I'm one of them--who said "Boo, Voyager!" and "Boo, Enterprise!" and now say "Yay, new movie!"

So this statement is right on target, except for being totally wrong.

Indeed. I gave up on Voyager around S4 or so and have seen perhaps a half-dozen episodes of Enterprise total, and I'm looking forward to this film. I'm sure there are some Voyager and Enterprise fans who aren't too.

 

[DaveyNY]

I've gotta add my .02 cents worth here too, just cause I've been trying to see both side of this discussion (?argument?) and don't want to be lumped into either group yet....

I've pretty much liked every Trek Incarnation (to one degree or another) up to this point.

I'd rank the TV versions thusly:
TOS
ENT
DS9
TNG
VOY
...and the Movies...
TMP
II:TWOK
IV:TVH
VIII:1st Contact
VI:TUC
III:TSFS
V:TFF
VII:GEN
IX:INS
X:NEM

... like this.

As for what I've seen so for about Trek XI, I'm dubious that I'm gonna really love this version (apparently because I'm a Trek Fundementalist and didn't even realize it), but I am at the least optimistic that I won't Hate it either.

I'm thinking I'll have to go back and re-watch all the previous movies after I've seen XI and see how my list changes.

 

[trevanian]

Except for those of us--and I'm one of them--who said "Boo, Voyager!" and "Boo, Enterprise!" and now say "Yay, new movie!"

So this statement is right on target, except for being totally wrong.



I need some quick cash--do you also have next week's winning lottery numbers?

It's not 'totally wrong' at all ... the most vociferous defenders (you know, the ones who average 20 posts per day for years and years) ARE the ones who seem hellbent on defending Paramount's interests by sniping those offering dissenting views, and they seem to do so regardless of the quality of the product.

sorry...
some of the people most hating on this movie also liked enterprise..
things are just not simple around here.

And 'some' of the people here did like those past ModernTrek absurdities as well as this new thing, which is my point. It wasn't totally wrong to characterize the gushers as having that background, if for no other reason than the poster or posters we see most often here seem to be the same ones singing ENT's praises years ago.

 

[M'Sharak]

It's not 'totally wrong' at all ... the most vociferous defenders (you know, the ones who average 20 posts per day for years and years) ARE the ones who seem hellbent on defending Paramount's interests by sniping those offering dissenting views, and they seem to do so regardless of the quality of the product.

sorry...
some of the people most hating on this movie also liked enterprise..
things are just not simple around here.

And 'some' of the people here did like those past ModernTrek absurdities as well as this new thing, which is my point. It wasn't totally wrong to characterize the gushers as having that background, if for no other reason than the poster or posters we see most often here seem to be the same ones singing ENT's praises years ago.

I think that the conclusion to be drawn here is that sweeping generalizations still don't work and, as it has been with Trek for decades now, the fans just aren't very cooperative when attempts are made to sort them into clear and distinct groups. We tend to be resistant to strict categorization.

 

[pookha]

most of us are not sheeple

 

[3D Master]

sorry...
some of the people most hating on this movie also liked enterprise..
things are just not simple around here.

And 'some' of the people here did like those past ModernTrek absurdities as well as this new thing, which is my point. It wasn't totally wrong to characterize the gushers as having that background, if for no other reason than the poster or posters we see most often here seem to be the same ones singing ENT's praises years ago.

I think that the conclusion to be drawn here is that sweeping generalizations still don't work and, as it has been with Trek for decades now, the fans just aren't very cooperative when attempts are made to sort them into clear and distinct groups. We tend to be resistant to strict categorization.

It's not a sweeping generalization it's a statistical observation. Those who didn't like Voyager and Enterprise but like the new movie are in the minority of the movie gushers. Most movie gushers were every bit as bad with Enterprise and Voyager.

 

[Rii]

It's not a sweeping generalization it's a statistical observation.

Minus any actual statistics.

 

[3D Master]

It's not a sweeping generalization it's a statistical observation.

Minus any actual statistics.

Plenty of statistics. I can read poster names, you know.

 

[Plumster]

Ladies and gentlemen, if we quit feeing these trolls they just might starve to death, or, better yet, turn on each other. Either way they'd out of our misery.

Your position, and Captain X's position, seem to say that it's trolling to suggest that this movie might just work and that it was the only way forward because of what had gone before in the previous 13 years because to do so is to offend a few thousand Trek fans. This thread is over 400 posts longs - there's clearly something in it whether you happen to agree or not.

So here is what JJ said;

We made this film not for Trekkies but for future fans of Star Trek. The studio wanted to give the film a fresh start and I was originally brought in as a producer, but upon reading the script, I saw so much potential and possibility that the original had failed to realize due to technological constraints so I got very greedy and I decided to direct it myself.

And you chose to post in this thread did you not? Don't be surprised if people don't agree with you.

Why don't you focus on the points made, and come up with a convincing narrative as to why I'm wrong and debate that?

Anything else boys and you simply come across as folks trying to spoil the debate with ruinous arguments that revert to a bit of name calling and protestations of being hard done to.

You have over 40 years of Trek to use to defend your honour - is this the best you can come up with? This is not a thread about you - it's about bodies of opinion and divisions within fandom. Thye mayexist - they may not.

I know what the evidence says.

Zealots I tells ya - they're everywhere.

 

[Plumster]

You go with what makes the most sense and stick with it. But what is the point to arguing this as a merit of doing a reboot.


Except that isn't what's being done here, because basically only the names are the same. And as for the "spirit of Star Trek" - no one can agree what that even is, so the point is moot.


Actually, yeah, I'd qualify the rant you opened this thread with as a hissy hit, "chum".


Gee, really?


Oh, I see, so you're going to argue semantics with me when it's really obvious that I mean to say a TOS-era movie should actually be made to resemble that era, instead of completely redoing everything.


He's just using the names.


He's making another sci-fi remake movie, Just like The Day the Earth Stood Still and so many others before it and that are coming up in the near future.


No, his movie is set in a rebooted version of the universe we were shown in TOS and onwards.


Blame the people making this movie for that, because it's their line of bullshit. Really it's just a weak attempt to placate the fans into accepting their in-universe reboot.

Christ on a crutch - my kids make less noise than you.

If you quit holding their noses and mouths shut, they'll make more noise.

I knew I was going about it in the wrong way.

 

[trevanian]

Christ on a crutch - my kids make less noise than you.

If you quit holding their noses and mouths shut, they'll make more noise.

I knew I was going about it in the wrong way.

I speak English, not emoticon. Is that supposed to represent one of the kiddies getting some oxygen?

 

[Deckerd]

It's not a sweeping generalization it's a statistical observation.

Minus any actual statistics.

I strayed in here by accident but this is fun.

Those who didn't like Voyager and Enterprise but like the new movie are in the minority of the movie gushers.

How can anyone, gusher or not, like the new movie? I didn't realise so many people had already seen it.

 

[pookha]

It's not a sweeping generalization it's a statistical observation.

Minus any actual statistics.

I strayed in here by accident but this is fun.

Those who didn't like Voyager and Enterprise but like the new movie are in the minority of the movie gushers.

How can anyone, gusher or not, like the new movie? I didn't realise so many people had already seen it.

i think those of saying we cant make a complete judgement about the film until we see it ( or see a conformed detailed plot outline at least) are being put into the choir of gushers.

it is just so amusing.

 

[Kirk1980]

Yeah, I wish that particular bit of 'wisdom' would die already.

NOBODY'S SEEN THE FILM.

Therefore, nobody should have an opinion one way or the other based on that sort of logic.

 

[SalvorHardin]

No, people should have an opinion based on what we know so far about the film.

It's just that certain people should stop treating their opinion as undeniable fact and speak as if they have all the information available about the movie, the plot and the characters and how they fit or not with the rest of Trek.

For example, my opinion on the matter of Trek XI ?

I like many, not all of the things I've seen and heard about this movie so far.
I hope it's a good movie for my entertainment's sake and for the franchise's sake.
In the end, it may be a great movie, it may very well be complete crap, it may be somewhere in between those extremes.
I do have a feeling what it will be from these options but I'll get back to you in May after I see it for a definite but still subjective answer.