Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot

[Brit]

My complaint is an apparent lack of extrapolation; Voyager destroyed the Borg. That’s pretty much canon, as in the Central Plexus being destroyed, the transwarp conduits collapsed etc. Then you have the Borg capturing and turning Janeway into a Queen, which is also pretty unbelievable. They could assimilate her, but I don’t think an adult female can be turned into a Borg Queen any more than an adult drone bee can be turned into a queen bee. If the Borg had that ability, they would have used it in “First Contact” and would have assimilated Earth before Warp Drive was possible.

The Queen is an individual whose personal identity is Borg. You have to take them young and program them well to get there.

Brit

 

[Lynx]

Trek was never the kind of series that killed off main characters? Especially in the movies? What show were you watching?

Yar, Wesley, Jadzia, tons of recurring characters in DS9, Kes, and then in the movies Spock (sure he was brought back, but they didn't intend to at the time it was written, much like Janeway now), Kirk, and Data...

Main character death has always been a part of the Star Trek universe, at the very least from Wrath Of Khan forwards. Not an immensely huge part, to be sure, but definitely an important component. And Janeway is the first main character to be killed in the books... just after the books revived Trip Tucker!

The books actually have a BETTER record on this than the movies or shows do.

Neither Wesley, nor Kes were killed off.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The Borg have also never been scarier than they were in Destiny.

And how. Their remorseless, relentless advance was something I actually found frightening. Mack clearly got the spirit of "The Best of Both Worlds" down pat.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Trek was never the kind of series that killed off main characters? Especially in the movies? What show were you watching?

Yar, Wesley, Jadzia, tons of recurring characters in DS9, Kes, and then in the movies Spock (sure he was brought back, but they didn't intend to at the time it was written, much like Janeway now), Kirk, and Data...

Main character death has always been a part of the Star Trek universe, at the very least from Wrath Of Khan forwards. Not an immensely huge part, to be sure, but definitely an important component. And Janeway is the first main character to be killed in the books... just after the books revived Trip Tucker!

The books actually have a BETTER record on this than the movies or shows do.

Neither Wesley, nor Kes were killed off.

Both individuals have now transcended the physical realm of the humanities and are off, over *there*. They might still make appearances, but they're departed mortal life.

 

[rfmcdpei]

My complaint is an apparent lack of extrapolation; Voyager destroyed the Borg. That’s pretty much canon, as in the Central Plexus being destroyed, the transwarp conduits collapsed etc.

I've checked my memories and Review Boy's review. Destroying the hub would take out one of the Borg's most significant advantages, and the neurolytic compound did kill the Queen, but even if the transwarp network was destroyed the Borg still had their own overpowered warp and warp drives, while popping out a new Queens is something that the Borg have done before.

Then you have the Borg capturing and turning Janeway into a Queen, which is also pretty unbelievable. They could assimilate her, but I don’t think an adult female can be turned into a Borg Queen any more than an adult drone bee can be turned into a queen bee. If the Borg had that ability, they would have used it in “First Contact” and would have assimilated Earth before Warp Drive was possible.

They didn't do that in First Contact because the Borg Queen herself went back in time to oversee Earth's assimilation. That's what the whole point of the time travel was about.

 

[rfmcdpei]

It seemed entirely plausible to me that she'd be spectacularly overconfident and fall prey to an unusual Borg maneuver. This is the woman who was hunting down Borg scout ships in the Delta Quadrant for their transwarp coils, remember.

So if Kirk or Picard were hunting down borg scout ships would they be spectacularly overconfident or really cool?

That would be spectacularly overconfident, and certainly out of character for a Picard who tends to be careful and measured and a Kirk whose risks are not that risky (killing a computer-god on a planet, sure, but jumping a ship belonging to a galactic cybernetic empire?).

For whatever reason, Janeway was remarkably willing, eager, even, to take on the Borg at numerous intervals (Species 8472, Unimatrix 001, Endgame) despite the absurdly high odds against her and Voyager. If it hadn't been for Voyager's luck, they'd have been assimilated by the beginning of the fourth season.

That's fine, so far as it goes, but runs of luck eventually break. In her case, it was in Before Dishonor, when not only Lady Q but Seven of Nine explicitly tell her not to set foot onto the mysterious one-of-a-kind Borg ship, but she does it anyway.

 

[Sci]

My complaint is an apparent lack of extrapolation; Voyager destroyed the Borg. That’s pretty much canon, as in the Central Plexus being destroyed, the transwarp conduits collapsed etc.

Not really. All we know is that Future!Janeway introduced a pathogen to the Queen and that they destroyed the transwarp network. But we've seen Queens killed before, and it didn't mean the end of the Collective. Nothing we saw in "Endgame" precluded the Borg from generating a new Queen.

Then you have the Borg capturing and turning Janeway into a Queen, which is also pretty unbelievable.

Well, first off, we need to be specific: We don't have "the Borg" capturing Janeway and turning her into a Queen, we have a ship of Borg that was cut off from the rest of the Collective during the events of "Endgame" and which was not connected to the rest of the hive.

They could assimilate her, but I don’t think an adult female can be turned into a Borg Queen any more than an adult drone bee can be turned into a queen bee. If the Borg had that ability, they would have used it in “First Contact” and would have assimilated Earth before Warp Drive was possible.

That statement makes no sense. First off, we know for a fact that Queens can die and be replaced, because we've seen queens die and then be replaced later on in the canon. Secondly, whether or not the Borg had the capacity to generate a new Queen is irrelevant to the question of what exact year they would have travelled to in First Contact.

The Queen is an individual whose personal identity is Borg. You have to take them young and program them well to get there.

No, they're obviously more than just that. First Contact makes it clear that the Queen considers herself to be the literal embodiment of the Collective -- the one who "brings order to chaos" -- not just an individual raised with a Borg cultural identity.

Later, the novels

Spoiler: VOY Relaunch, Destiny trilogy

establish that the Borg Queen is the embodiment of a program called the Royal Protocol that imbues a given drone with the pre-programmed physical and psychological characteristics. The Royal Protocol itself is essentially an extension of the driving consciousness behind the Collective, the degraded and deranged mind of the Caeliar once known as Sedin. The Queen is, in essence, an intelligence that was re-developed from the degraded consciousness of Sedin, and continues to serve the Sedin consciousness by controlling the Collective according to Sedin's drives and appetites.

 

[Thrawn]

Trek was never the kind of series that killed off main characters? Especially in the movies? What show were you watching?

Yar, Wesley, Jadzia, tons of recurring characters in DS9, Kes, and then in the movies Spock (sure he was brought back, but they didn't intend to at the time it was written, much like Janeway now), Kirk, and Data...

Main character death has always been a part of the Star Trek universe, at the very least from Wrath Of Khan forwards. Not an immensely huge part, to be sure, but definitely an important component. And Janeway is the first main character to be killed in the books... just after the books revived Trip Tucker!

The books actually have a BETTER record on this than the movies or shows do.

Neither Wesley, nor Kes were killed off.

Both individuals have now transcended the physical realm of the humanities and are off, over *there*. They might still make appearances, but they're departed mortal life.

Exactly. If those two don't count as "dead", neither does Janeway.

 

[Thrawn]

Brit, seriously - you can complain about Janeway being killed all you want, but please refrain from debating the logic of plots you haven't even read. The reality presented in these novels is far different from what you seem to think, and isn't close to as illogical as you make it sound. When you start to criticize things based on factually false information, it just makes you look like you're overreaching.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Neither Wesley, nor Kes were killed off.

Both individuals have now transcended the physical realm of the humanities and are off, over *there*. They might still make appearances, but they're departed mortal life.

Exactly. If those two don't count as "dead", neither does Janeway.

You've got a point. I'd argue that it's different in Janeway's case in that the other two are allowed to and have in fact made contact with the rest of the Trekverse since their ascendance while that's not the case with Janeway, and in that Janeway actually physically died, but I agree that the consciousnesses of the three has survived in whatever form.

 

[Thrawn]

Janeway has been dead for less than 18 months of publishing time, and approaching a year of in-universe time. It took substantially longer than that for either Wesley or Kes to reappear. Have patience.

 

[joyofvgr]

Trek was never the kind of series that killed off main characters? Especially in the movies? What show were you watching?

Yar, Wesley, Jadzia, tons of recurring characters in DS9, Kes, and then in the movies Spock (sure he was brought back, but they didn't intend to at the time it was written, much like Janeway now), Kirk, and Data...

Main character death has always been a part of the Star Trek universe, at the very least from Wrath Of Khan forwards. Not an immensely huge part, to be sure, but definitely an important component. And Janeway is the first main character to be killed in the books... just after the books revived Trip Tucker!

The books actually have a BETTER record on this than the movies or shows do.

You know as well as I do that those deaths were either not permanent or softened. I never watched DS9, so I can't speak to that, but you may have a point. I always heard it was darker than the rest.

 

[Thrawn]

Every single death on that list was intended to be permanent at the time it was written. The only possible exceptions would be characters that we knew would be visiting from beyond the grave, like Wesley or Kes. But none of those deaths were written with the intention of reversing them. Some later were, but it was never intended to be impermanent at the time the story was conceived. This is fact.

And as for "softened", after Janeway dies, she runs off to parts unknown with Lady Q. Which is certainly more softened than many on the list, and about equivalent with Spock, Data, and Kirk. All of them had ways that they could've been brought back to life, or failing that, ways their consciousness could be revisited. Just like Janeway.

Janeway's death is no different in execution from any of the ones on the list, in terms of permanence or softening. If you think otherwise, you're misinformed.

 

[joyofvgr]

I don't like getting emotionally invested in characters that are going to die. Trek was never that kind of series. It was always very lighthearted and had an element of comedy too it, especially the movies. I would prefer that it stay that way.

We're we watching the same series?

In TOS, Balance of Terror, The City on the Edge of Forever, The Doomsday Machine.

In TNG, Skin of Evil, The Vengeance Factor, The Most Toys, Unification I.

In DS9, Sacrifice of Angels, Tears of the Prophets, Life Support, Empok Nor, Blaze of Glory.

In VOY, Tuvix, Basics Part II

All of those episodes had either the death of a long standing character or someone who was only in a single episode but who left such an impression on me I was saddened when they died. You may not like the fact that that Janeway was killed off but to say that Star Trek has never had serious episodes with characters we cared about dying is flat out wrong.

You're right, we did care about those characters, I stand corrected on that point. But, you have to admit that there's a big difference between watching those characters die vs. watching the star of the show die. I use the series MASH as a perfect example. MASH was about war and there was a lot of death, however, I never cared for the episode where Henry Blake died and I never watched the end of the series until many years later when I saw it in re runs.

 

[joyofvgr]

Every single death on that list was intended to be permanent at the time it was written. The only possible exceptions would be characters that we knew would be visiting from beyond the grave, like Wesley or Kes. But none of those deaths were written with the intention of reversing them. Some later were, but it was never intended to be impermanent at the time the story was conceived. This is fact.

And as for "softened", after Janeway dies, she runs off to parts unknown with Lady Q. Which is certainly more softened than many on the list, and about equivalent with Spock, Data, and Kirk. All of them had ways that they could've been brought back to life, or failing that, ways their consciousness could be revisited. Just like Janeway.

Janeway's death is no different in execution from any of the ones on the list, in terms of permanence or softening. If you think otherwise, you're misinformed.

No. I don't think otherwise. I'm just concerned that they will do away with the character permanently and prematurely, imo.

 

[Thrawn]

Which is a valid concern. But don't go pretending this is something shockingly new for Star Trek, because it absolutely isn't.

 

[joyofvgr]

Which is a valid concern. But don't go pretending this is something shockingly new for Star Trek, because it absolutely isn't.

My concern is valid and the character was killed off prematurely. Kirk may have died in Generations, but that was after four other movies and it was a passing of the torch, so to speak, although, I wasn't crazy about that either. I actually thought it was ridiculous. Spock came back and I was just as upset when he died. I agree that there is still time for Janeway, but you have to admit it doesn't look good. If they don't bring her back it will be a change for Trek, I am not pretending. If they start to kill the main characters it will be change from what Trek originally was. Perhaps they've been moving in that direction, but this is a very big step forward.

 

[Thrawn]

I actually disagree. I think it's a matter of opinion. Trek has killed quite a few main characters; she just happens to be a fairly important one. They left the same possibilities for her to return in some form as they did for all the rest of them. I really honestly don't see why this is considered such a giant break from tradition. If there can still be books branded "Star Trek" that aren't about Kirk, then there can still be books branded "Star Trek: Voyager" that aren't about Janeway.

I'm sorry you feel as if a line has been crossed, but I simply, and truthfully, disagree.

One final point - "a change from what Trek originally was" is, I'd say, an extremely meaningless sentence at this point. Trek has been through several different administrations of several different creative teams, in at least 5 major forms of entertainment (movie, tv, game, book, comic). It has spanned over 200 years of storytelling (more, if you include Eugenics Wars and far-future hints like from Federation). And a whole lot of that material barely even resembles "what Trek originally was" in any form at all. At this point, it's a shared universe, a mythology. A setting within which just about any possible story can be told somewhere. It's not even remotely close to any kind of unified entity.

So if you want to be upset that your favorite character, or a character you feel is essential to Voyager, is dead, be my guest. That's fine, no one is arguing you shouldn't feel that way. But this is no bigger than that, it's not a change in mission statement or anything of the kind. It's just a story you don't like.

 

[Steve Roby]

I never watched DS9

Not too late to start. It's the most complex, character-driven, and intelligent Star Trek series. If you want Trek that has a lot of character growth and relationships (not just the kind you have to read between the lines to find), and stories that have lasting consequences, it's the one to watch. And then you can read the DS9 relaunch novels, which are also great. (It certainly has its darker moments, but it's not nearly as dark as Battlestar Galactica.)

 

[Tachyon]

I never watched DS9

Not too late to start. It's the most complex, character-driven, and intelligent Star Trek series. If you want Trek that has a lot of character growth and relationships (not just the kind you have to read between the lines to find), and stories that have lasting consequences, it's the one to watch. And then you can read the DS9 relaunch novels, which are also great. (It certainly has its darker moments, but it's not nearly as dark as Battlestar Galactica.)

Wow. What a speech! DS9 is good, tho. Not the best Trek there is, but good nevertheless.