A sequel to Section 31?

[Cicero]

I think we've come to view Section 31 through the wrong prism. They're of an earlier, more rational, more morality-driven, less emotional time (the late 90s and early 2000s), but perception of the organization has been colored by the values of the Bush-Cheney era.

Section 31 is not vindictive, power-hungry, or cruel, but is a dark image of the Federation which a cold calculus of life has driven to perform morally questionable or reprehensible actions. They represent an inversion of the epigram of A Time To Heal (or was it A Time To Kill?): they perform the wrong deed for the right reason.

When considered at length, each of their actions I remember can be conceivably justified:

The attempted genocide of the Founders is all but permissible by the rules of war. Like the United States located and killed Admiral Yamamoto during World War II (and would have Hitler had we had the chance), Section 31 sought to eliminate the military command of a violent, xenophobic, oppressive regime with which it was at war. Only separating the event from a purely military effect was Odo's susceptibility to the disease and Section 31's (perhaps justifiable, considering his later actions, which may have left billions or trillions enslaved) refusal to treat him. (Note that the Federation Council implictly endorsed this action by voting to withhold the cure from the Founders until hostilities ceased.)

Section 31's and Starfleet's political deconstruction of Senator Kretak in favor of their mole within the Romulan government was probably to the benefit of the Federation - to the benefit of the lives of billions or trillions - at the cost of only the political career of a good person who was another nation's patriot. It was wrong, certainly, (since she truly was a good person) but is justifiable in a calculus of life mindset.

And the provision of intelligence on Terra Prime to Starfleet in order to protect the formation of the Coalition of Planets is perhaps the cleanest and most correct of their known actions.
​

I once considered why someone ethical might join an organization like Section 31 (it was a slightly different organization I was considering), and concluded that there are moral holes in the Federation's philosophies. Many of its tenants cause or extend suffering where the Federation's power might save lives and end horrors. The most obvious of these tenants is the Prime Directive.

The Prime Directive commands Federation noninterference in the affairs of primitive cultures. In so doing, it allows all the horrors of war, disease, genocide, violence, and torment to continue in places that have not developed warp drive. Thus the Federation does not stop - blatantly allows and perhaps even directly observes - Holocausts, police states, plagues, and more, simply in the name of noninterference. They ignore horror - suffering and death - they ignore lives - so that cultures may endure. It is easy to see how someone descended from an oppressed group - say from the Dalit on Earth - would conclude that the Federation's principles are morally wrong.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

One of my dreams as a fan is a novel that is building on the anti-Section 31 movement mentioned in DS9 R working together with "the department" of SI headed by Admiral Nechayev. That means Vaughn, Bashir and Calhoun working together. And get Picard involved, too. I think Picard and Calhoun made a great team when working with Nechayev.

I would love to read that!

 

[Thrawn]

Oh man that would be great. Picard, Bashir, Vaughn, and Calhoun as an undercover team...wow. You could even set it in 2377, during NF's time skip and before ATT, so that Picard and Calhoun could participate.

Not gonna happen, I realize, but MAN that sounds like fun.

 

[Marie1]

Is there still Section 31? I thought I read somewhere that it was gone? Maybe not...

There was a 'flash forward' in Enterprise that revealed Section 31 would be destroyed, but it hasn't happened yet in the books.

Ohhh... k, thanks. I'll go on a quest for the episode.

Vanguard

Unnecessary; T'Prynn would probably give 31 nightmares.

I think the term "evil" gets tossed around way too often, but I have serious misgivings about section 31. What good has ever come of them? They run around, sneaking in the shadows, murdering people and other dubious behaviour under the guise they're protecting the Federation. They're just... icky. I can't imagine the Federation would be worse off without them.

 

[Cicero]

I'm curious: have we ever seen them acting to try to protect themselves (except by sacrificing their own personnel), or have they only attempted to protect the Federation so far as we've seen?

(I forgot the removal of Min Zife from office in my list of their activities. A number of generally more heroic characters agreed with what was silently done in that case (aside from Zife's and Azernal's probable murders), even as they resolved to destroy Section 31 itself.)

 

[wew]

The problem is we get a very limited view of what they've done and their actions are usually played out against our protagonists which requires Section 31 to be seen as evil. What we don't see is the other activities they have done.

The question remains that unless a book or series focuses on them giving their view, it is unlikely they can ever be seen in any other light; since we only see one small picture of what occurs.

The truth is even our semi-secret organizations such as CIA, the OSS (WWII era), etc often engage in activities that are down right illegal. Sometimes it helps the uS, sometimes the blowback turns into a disaster. Unfortunately, one is put into the situation of "what if" and that can be said to be a dangerous, because fortelling the future rarely works.

One of the most ignorant acts ever done by a bureaucrat in the American intelligence agency was when the individual basically devastated American Intelligence collection when he shut down an operation by noting "Gentleman do not read other Gentleman's mail." Thus cutting off a major source of intelligence.

 

[shanejayell]

It's interesting that most of the time we see section 31 it's because of a failed operation. I assume they're successful much more often, and we have no idea what they've done to preserve the Federation.

 

[JD]

Is there still Section 31? I thought I read somewhere that it was gone? Maybe not...

There was a 'flash forward' in Enterprise that revealed Section 31 would be destroyed, but it hasn't happened yet in the books.

Ohhh... k, thanks. I'll go on a quest for the episode.

Acatually, it was the first Post-Finale book, The Good That Men Do.

 

[LutherSloan]

I'm curious: have we ever seen them acting to try to protect themselves (except by sacrificing their own personnel), or have they only attempted to protect the Federation so far as we've seen?

(I forgot the removal of Min Zife from office in my list of their activities. A number of generally more heroic characters agreed with what was silently done in that case (aside from Zife's and Azernal's probable murders), even as they resolved to destroy Section 31 itself.)

Admiral Ross and Co. did not know until much later that we were going to 'dispose' of Zife, Azernal, and Quafina all along.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I guess my passing reference to "shades of gray" wasn't clear enough.

No, it was clear enough. I just don't happen to believe in such things. My worldview is so black and white it should be a zebra.

 

[Andy Mangels]

When we were writing ROGUE, Mike and I had several discussions with Marco about doing more with Section 31. The ending of ROGUE was written as a pretty damn clear set-up for a sequel, with Picard et. al. saying "enough is enough." (not singing it, mind you)

Marco kept back-burnering our concept and we moved on to other projects. But in the back of our minds, a big multi-ship Federation-spanning crossover was always in the egg stage.

We even set up things in Enterprise that could lead to what happened in the future...

 

[shanejayell]

We even set up things in Enterprise that could lead to what happened in the future...

'The Good that Men Do' I presume. I REALLY need to track that book down, darn it.

But yeah, I'd LOVE to see that 'Fall of Thirty-one' story done.

 

[Sci]

I guess my passing reference to "shades of gray" wasn't clear enough.

"Section 31 = Good" is no less simplistic than "Section 31 = Evil". I'd like to see a Section 31 tale that moves beyond what we saw on TV, with black-leather-clad spooks hiding in shadows using all their willpower to keep from twirling their mustaches. But at the same time, Section 31 keeps to the shadows and is not acknowledged to exist for what I believe are some very good reasons.

I'd suggest that if you're interested in moral ambiguity, you should advocate for stories featuring Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet in general engaging in morally ambiguous behavior. Because SI and the Starfleet operate within the confines of a democratic governance system.

Section 31 does not. Its very nature violates the principle of the rule of law. Even if all they ever did was get together to play Bingo every Wednesday, the fact that they hold themselves above the law invalidates everything they do, ever, for any reason whatsoever.

I'm curious: have we ever seen them acting to try to protect themselves (except by sacrificing their own personnel), or have they only attempted to protect the Federation so far as we've seen?

Arranging for the Dominion massacre of New Beijing in order to recruit Ethan Locken before endangering the lives of Starfleet personnel to bring him and his Jem'Hadar down, when, as the end of Abyss reveals, they bloody well had the manpower and resources to take him down themselves... that certainly comes to mind. Does that count as acting purely in the defense of the Federation? Or as acting in the interests of their own institution?

(I forgot the removal of Min Zife from office in my list of their activities. A number of generally more heroic characters agreed with what was silently done in that case (aside from Zife's and Azernal's probable murders), even as they resolved to destroy Section 31 itself.)

Erroneous. Ross, Nechayev, Jellico, Paris, Nakamura, Picard, and Legan engaged in a conspiracy to force Zife from office, but it was Section 31 that forced Ross, Nechayev, and Nakamura to let them assassinate Zife.

And, no, assassinating the Federation President is not acting in the interests of the Federation.

Further, every canonical action we've ever seen 31 undertake backfired. Badly.

- They try to recruit a man whose psych profile should have told them was far too principled and rigid in his beliefs to actually join their organization.

- They had a pro-Fed Alliance Romulan Senator assassinated in order to put the Chairman of the Tal Shiar on the Romulan Continuing Committee because of his assurance that he was working for them as a double agent. But it's absurd to trust him and to give him more power. And sure as hell, by the time NEM began, that alliance had crumbled and the Tal Shiar failed to stop the violently anti-Federation Shinzon from coming to power. So obviously putting Koval on the Continuing Committee did shit for Federation interests.

- Their attempt to commit genocide against the Founders -- besides violating fundamental moral principles that obviously supersede even the imperative to continue living -- was bloody stupid. It caused the Female Shapeshifter to order her troops to keep on fighting and give the Allies a pyrrhic victory long after she'd been militarily defeated. Only Odo's curing the disease saved Federation lives.

- Their undermining Earth's security nets and commission of obstruction of justice to allow the Klingons to kidnap Dr. Phlox to work on their Augment virus just led to the Klingons betraying them.

Section 31 is not the ultra-competent James Bond saving Queen and Country over the petty objections of squeamish Members of Parliament. Section 31 is the CIA overthrowing the Iranian government in Operation Ajax, thus setting the stage for majorly painful blowback decades later: Pure incompetence. Only worse, because at least the CIA takes orders from the President.

Exactly, Section 31 is very important organization for Earth/Federation safety throughout the Star Trek history.

Well, no, I didn't say that.

So you don't like the 'S31- the good guys' idea at all? Because I have to agree with Miroslav on this, it would be naive to believe that Federation would be a major player in the quadrant without it's equivalent to the Tal shiar and/or Obsidian order.

1. The Federation already has its own intelligence agency: Starfleet Intelligence. SI has engaged in morally ambiguous missions... but at least it did so within the framework of accountability to the democratically-elected Federation government. Section 31 has no such redeeming virtue. It poses a fundamental threat to the rule of law and to the survival of liberal democracy within the Federation's borders.

2. Listen very carefully to your word choice, there. The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar are not just intelligence agencies. They're also the secret police. Now, think about that. Are you really trying to say that the Federation needs its own Gestapo or Cheka in order to survive?

Because, frankly, I question whether someone who believes in torture, secret police, and disregard for the rule of law is truly committed to liberal democracy.

I would be very pleased if someone wrote Section 31 novel, or even make Section 31 live series based on the 24/Jack Bauer. It would be nice to see how Jack would interrogate some Romulan terorists.

"Put the phaser down! Where is the torpedo? I'm gonna cut your pointed ear. Damnit!"

So, I recommend everyone to visit: http://malf.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_24

24 is one of the most disgusting, immoral, jingoistic pieces of propaganda designed to serve as an apologia for the institutionalized disregard for human rights and the rule of law out there. Jack Bauer is not a hero. He is not like Captain Kirk from TOS, saving America with his manly power and willingness to bend the rules. Jack Bauer is like the Operative from Serenity: So blinded by protecting his government from real and imagined "threats" that he can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong.

 

[LutherSloan]

But yeah, I'd LOVE to see that 'Fall of Thirty-one' story done.

That's ok, we're already working through time-travel to continue our organization past 2400, thanks.

 

[RonG]

Am I the only one interested in seeing S31 react to

Spoiler: A Singular Destiny and beyond

the establishment of the Tychon Pact?

This could play into both Andy Mangel and Michael Martin's proposed "Fall of Section 31" AND the 2010 "meta-story" all in one!

 

[shanejayell]

I think it's clear that 31 WILL react to that, tho exactly how will depend on the authors.

 

[Mach5]

Because, frankly, I question whether someone who believes in torture, secret police, and disregard for the rule of law is truly committed to liberal democracy.

Torture is never justified, but whenever the need for extracting information arises, it's going to be used as a last resort. BTW, you mention the rule of law and democracy, well CIA has a nice way of going around it - just open up a secret prison in some obscure country (forget about Guantanamo and Abu Graib, those are the ones we know of) and torture those "terrorist" mofos all you want, one or them (out of hundreds they illegally arrest) is bound to know something about someone who knows someone who might be a terrorist. And guess what, it seems to be working - after 9/11, USA is (from a foreigners POV) pretty much terror-free.
My point - as long as these questionable (and distasteful) methods produce results (and they do), they're going to be around, and I doubt that even the uber-moral 24. century society would be above that.

24 is one of the most disgusting, immoral, jingoistic pieces of propaganda designed to serve as an apologia for the institutionalized disregard for human rights and the rule of law out there.

And a pretty lousy TV show I might add (10 times more naive and less realistic than, say, "Star Wars", "Lost", "Tom & Jerry," etc.), but also pretty fun (I sometimes watch it and laugh at how stupid it is, but I watch it anyway, especially now when our "Enterprise boys" are doing it )

Jack Bauer is not a hero. He is not like Captain Kirk from TOS, saving America with his manly power and willingness to bend the rules. Jack Bauer is like the Operative from Serenity: So blinded by protecting his government from real and imagined "threats" that he can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong.

Yeah, but he has a really hot daughter...

 

[DimesDan]

And guess what, it seems to be working - after 9/11, USA is (from a foreigners POV) pretty much terror-free.

And before September 11th 2001 the USA was pretty much terror free from anyone! But weren't the two biggest terrorist attacks on American soil: The Oklahoma bombing and previous attack on the WTC home grown nut jobs and not a Jihadist so I find that comment really rather laughable and pretty wide of the mark.

May I just point out that at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland, the British Governmet did not create specialist prisons to "extract" information from IRA members and as far as I am aware, neither have the French when they've had thier troubles with the Algerians.

As for a continuation of the Section 31 novels, I must admit, I'm not sure if I'd actually like to read such stories although on the other hand, if they were included in a similar way as the final three in the A Time Too series in the Typhon Pact stories, that could be fun.

 

[JoeZhang]

I guess my passing reference to "shades of gray" wasn't clear enough.

"Section 31 = Good" is no less simplistic than "Section 31 = Evil". I'd like to see a Section 31 tale that moves beyond what we saw on TV, with black-leather-clad spooks hiding in shadows using all their willpower to keep from twirling their mustaches. But at the same time, Section 31 keeps to the shadows and is not acknowledged to exist for what I believe are some very good reasons.

I'd suggest that if you're interested in moral ambiguity, you should advocate for stories featuring Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet in general engaging in morally ambiguous behavior. Because SI and the Starfleet operate within the confines of a democratic governance system.

Section 31 does not. Its very nature violates the principle of the rule of law. Even if all they ever did was get together to play Bingo every Wednesday, the fact that they hold themselves above the law invalidates everything they do, ever, for any reason whatsoever.

This seems an very odd objection - if they were real, maybe - but it's not, I want interesting and challenging fiction not self-censorship because we don't agree with the action of the actors in the narrative. I think it would be a fantastic story to show a morally bankrupt but effective section 31.

 

[MiroslavSFCenter]

Now, we live in a post-9/11 world, and terms like "Extraordinary Rendition," "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," and "Waterboarding" have entered our daily lexicon. These are all things that are part and parcel of the Section 31 world, and I'm not sure that I would welcome a Star Trek novel that justified evil.

Oh, boy, some ppl obviously can't separate fiction and reality...... BTW. enhanced tech aren't evil, they are proper means to stop forces of evil.

If you're using a smiley to justify torture and the dehumanization of prisoners, you and I are so far apart morally and philosophically that there's no use in discussing the matter.

Torture is never justified. A society that can sacrifice its values in the name of a mythical security doesn't deserve to survive.

It is obviously that you never be in the war zone, with enemies threating you at every sight. If yo are posing as some utopian moralist then you'll definetly lose the war. And allove enemies of democracy to gain the power.

That is problem with allof you liberall. You're defending people who despise you and your way of life. If they can, they would destroy you and any kind of civlisation just like that Buddha monuments in Afghanistan.

24 is one of the most disgusting, immoral, jingoistic pieces of propaganda designed to serve as an apologia for the institutionalized disregard for human rights and the rule of law out there. Jack Bauer is not a hero. He is not like Captain Kirk from TOS, saving America with his manly power and willingness to bend the rules. Jack Bauer is like the Operative from Serenity: So blinded by protecting his government from real and imagined "threats" that he can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong.

Ohhh, another utopian liberal, which think that goverment can deal with terorist with flowers and "we surrender" Picard talk. I wonder if you even served in army?

And for record, Jack Bauer is the MAN! He and Tony Almeida are gonna to kick some ass.. and torture someone with pencil.

Torture is never justified. A society that can sacrifice its values in the name of a mythical security doesn't deserve to survive.

You lecture a man about ethics and morale (by paraphrasing Ben Franklin if I'm not mistaken), yet you quote (someone who can be viewed as) a mass murderer in your sig...

Completley true. It is easy tho have double standards and close eyes in sight atrocities as nuclear attacks on civilian population of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, severe bombardment of Dresden, etc.