Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot

[Tay]

I'm a new member but I've been on the site before, reading through the various threads. I wanted to sit back and think about what I wanted to say in this thread. I don't want to step on anyone's toes or POV's. This is just my opinion. You can disagree with it but I really needed to get this out.

I’ve bought every single Voyager that has been published, including those Voyager books that were geared to the pre-teens because I enjoyed the series that much. Also, I purchased the Strange New Worlds even if there was only one or two Voyager story in the lot. I enjoyed the others that were there but my main reason for buying was for the Voyager story.

I’ve read a few books from the other series, mostly TNG and I have have enjoyed them. I even started reading the New Frontier books before losing interest in the direction that the author was taking that series.

I watched TNG but never was able to connect to that crew as much as I did to the crew of Voyager. I’ve been a fan of Voyager and her Captain since the show started airing.

My main issue with her death is that she was killed off in a book that was not part of the Voyager series. Not that I would have enjoyed having to read it there either, to tell the truth. I purchased the books because I was reading about the Voyager family. A family that includes its Captain. In any series, the Captain is the heart of that crew.

Imagine if during the Voyager relaunch, the authors decided to kill Picard. Wouldn’t you feel angry and betrayed by Pocket Books/Star Trek for allowing another branch of the series to kill off the main member of the TNG crew? That’s how the Janeway fans are feeling right now.

You can argue that Tasha Yar and Date, etc were killed off in the movies and in the series but that never occurred in the Voyager series. In a way, their deaths however much we disliked them because I never like to see a main character killed off, is part of canon. In my mind, canon is what we see on screen, not what is written.

That being said, I think, IMHO, that it was a horrible choice to take with Janeway’s character, as there are fans out there that were bound to be upset about her death. In my mind, her death will never be canon but I heard that future Trek authors will be accepting and using her death as canonical fact and write books where she is no longer a character.

We can all agree to disagree. We all have our opinions on Janeway’s death. I think it’s a poor editorial choice to have allowed , especially in light of one of the main requirements for submitting a Trek story for publishing. This book broke 2 of the established “rules” for submitting a book under this category:

No death of an established crewmember or character, or any other permanent change in the Star Trek characters, settings, or universe, such as introducing offspring or close relations of the characters other than those already established.

No mixing of casts, which means no plots that mix the characters from one series with those of another
The rest of the list can be found here:

http://www.simonsays.com/content/feature.cfm?feature_id=439&tab=24


These rules have not changed on the Simon & Schuster website since 2004.

I guess that is the standard for all the series, unless character is a member of Voyager and in this case her Captain.

As such, I will not be purchasing any further Star Trek, Pocket or Simon & Schuster affiliated books. They have lost a customer and I doubt I’ll be willing to come back, given the state of things.

Before you say, “Big deal. What could your little protest do?”

Well, I’m an avid reader and I usually purchase 12-15 books per month, 90% of them being Pocket books

From a financial point of view, as that’s what the money people are interested in, here’s what my not purchasing a few books will mean to Pocket books:

12 books at $13.99 each one = $167.88 per month

$167.88 monthly x 12 months = $2,014.56 per year

This was based on just the paperbacks that I’m constantly buying, it doesn’t take into account all the hard cover books that I buy

The suggestion that we go out and re-purchase the books to show our interest will prove nothing, except to pour money into something that in the future will no longer appeal to us

I read the Trek books to recapture the magic that I saw on screen, whether its a TNG or Voyager. That's what I want read. I would be just as disappointed if I was reading a TNG and Picard was missing

To those authors that say that they write for themselves and not for the readers, that’s a poor way of looking at things. I agree that you should write for yourself but when you’re trying to write for the masses, a little thought should be placed on your readers.

After all, without the support of your readers purchasing your books, those royalties will trickle to nothing

 

[Thrawn]

Thank you for your long, well thought out post. I hope you don't find this board unwelcoming; we appreciate the input from anyone so willing to reasonably speak their mind.

There are a few things I'd like to point out, though, a couple of misconceptions you have that I think are coloring your opinions a bit.

1) Most books don't get royalties anyway, just advances, and really nobody does this to make the big bucks. They write because they love it. It's not even enough to live on, for all but a tiny select few.

2) The requirements on the S&S website don't actually reflect what books are published, just which submissions they will look at. It's a test to see if you can play by their rules. If they decide to do something important like kill off a main character, the decision comes from THEM and is given to the writers, not the other way around. They don't accept ideas that are "let's kill Janeway!" That decision is theirs. So if you submit, you submit something that doesn't rock the boat, and then they decide if you're good enough to handle a book that would.

3) Unless I'm mistaken, you wrote that no canon deaths happened in Voyager - did you happen to forget Kes?

4) Your position is otherwise well-argued, but I still think, given how much you've invested in the work so far, you owe it to yourself to at least try Full Circle when it comes out in April. Or read what other people think about it, and make your decision then. If you really are done, then that's ok, no one will be mad; a decision this radical was bound to drive some fans away. But not being able to imagine it being good, and it actually being bad, are two separate things, and there is a gap there.

I actually agree that killing off Janeway in a TNG book was incredibly stupid. But the fallout, I think, is much more important than the death itself, and that hasn't been published yet. She was killed so Voyager could tell better stories; they just did it in the wrong book. But I think, in large part, it's not possible to judge the decision until the full weight of it has been felt. Which it will be, in April.


(Oh, and how do you buy TWELVE Trek books a MONTH? Haven't you run out by now?! Or are you refusing to buy anything printed by the entire company over this?)

 

[Steve Roby]

We can all agree to disagree. We all have our opinions on Janeway’s death. I think it’s a poor editorial choice to have allowed , especially in light of one of the main requirements for submitting a Trek story for publishing. This book broke 2 of the established “rules” for submitting a book under this catagory:

No death of an established crewmember or character, or any other permanent change in the Star Trek characters, settings, or universe, such as introducing offspring or close relations of the characters other than those already established.

No mixing of casts, which means no plots that mix the characters from one series with those of another
The rest of the list can be found here:

http://www.simonsays.com/content/feature.cfm?feature_id=439&tab=24


These rules have not changed on the Simon & Schuster website since 2004.

The thing about those rules is that they're for new writers. They don't apply to decisions made by the editors and experienced novelists, so they don't apply here. There are a lot of books out now that don't follow those guidelines, but that's editorial discretion. The point of the rules is to get new writers to demonstrate that they can work within constraints (and follow rules).

As such, I will not be purchasing any further Star Trek, Pocket or Simon & Schuster affiliated books. They have lost a customer and I doubt I’ll be willing to come back, given the state of things.

That's fine. It's your decision to make. What I had a problem with was people claiming to speak on behalf of a silent majority.

 

[MilitantJaneway]

3) Unless I'm mistaken, you wrote that no canon deaths happened in Voyager - did you happen to forget Kes?

Kes didn't die-she left in Gift and came back for that whacked out fury episode.

 

[Tay]

Thank you for your long, well thought out post. I hope you don't find this board unwelcoming; we appreciate the input from anyone so willing to reasonably speak their mind.

There are a few things I'd like to point out, though, a couple of misconceptions you have that I think are coloring your opinions a bit.

1) Most books don't get royalties anyway, just advances, and really nobody does this to make the big bucks. They write because they love it. It's not even enough to live on, for all but a tiny select few.

2) The requirements on the S&S website don't actually reflect what books are published, just which submissions they will look at. It's a test to see if you can play by their rules. If they decide to do something important like kill off a main character, the decision comes from THEM and is given to the writers, not the other way around. They don't accept ideas that are "let's kill Janeway!" That decision is theirs. So if you submit, you submit something that doesn't rock the boat, and then they decide if you're good enough to handle a book that would.

3) Unless I'm mistaken, you wrote that no canon deaths happened in Voyager - did you happen to forget Kes?

4) Your position is otherwise well-argued, but I still think, given how much you've invested in the work so far, you owe it to yourself to at least try Full Circle when it comes out in April. Or read what other people think about it, and make your decision then. If you really are done, then that's ok, no one will be mad; a decision this radical was bound to drive some fans away. But not being able to imagine it being good, and it actually being bad, are two separate things, and there is a gap there.

I actually agree that killing off Janeway in a TNG book was incredibly stupid. But the fallout, I think, is much more important than the death itself, and that hasn't been published yet. She was killed so Voyager could tell better stories; they just did it in the wrong book. But I think, in large part, it's not possible to judge the decision until the full weight of it has been felt. Which it will be, in April.


(Oh, and how do you buy TWELVE Trek books a MONTH? Haven't you run out by now?! Or are you refusing to buy anything printed by the entire company over this?)

Thank you for responding to my post. I figured it would be better if I typed it out, after thinking things through instead of blasting the thread with my first thoughts on the whole situation

I wasn't aware of some of the points you brought up but I'll respond to them to the best of my abilities.

1) Wouldn't the advances decrease for the authors if the books don't sell a certain amount?

2) Valid point from both you and Steve Roby.

3) Kes never died in the show. In the Gift she super evolved into another being. In Fury she was still alive at the end of the episode Except for the version of future Kes that the Janeway in the past had been forced to kill. To paraphrases KJ, "The future is the past, the past the future. It all gives me a headache."

4) Chances are I won't give it a chance. I'm just not interested in reading a series with main characters missing. I still refuse to believe that Data's dead and that happened on screen.

LOL not 12 Trek books a month. I just purchase a lot of books. I blame my aunt for forcing me to read when I was younger. I usually go through a 300 page book in about an hour and a half, sometimes quicker if the book really captures my attention. My wallet has dents in it because of it and I cringe every time I leave the bookstore carting out my plastic bag that always rips before I manage to get home. Even though the cost is high, I can't help purchasing books that capture my attention.

However, I won't be purchasing any books from Pocket Books, etc. Star Trek was just the tip of the icing on my making this decision.

I've found over the years the quality of what is out there just hasn't been the same. I don't know if they are using Ghost Writers for some of the authors I tend to read or the authors have gotten bored with their writing, but I've noticed a distinct writing style change. Some for the better but many for the worse.

Tay

 

[Thrawn]

Well, I am deeply sorry to hear that, but I do of course respect your right to make that choice.

I, personally, have gone through about 3 huge phases of Trek reading, between which there were years where I never touched them. Sometimes, it just isn't working, but it doesn't mean that later it won't.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know I think there are some Disgruntled Janeway fans that could learn a lesson from Tay. And that is that you can express your dislike of Pocket Book's decision to kill Janeway in a thoughful and well put together post WITHOUT insulting the writers and editors of Pocket.

 

[LaBarre]

I actually agree that killing off Janeway in a TNG book was incredibly stupid. But the fallout, I think, is much more important than the death itself, and that hasn't been published yet. She was killed so Voyager could tell better stories; they just did it in the wrong book. But I think, in large part, it's not possible to judge the decision until the full weight of it has been felt. Which it will be, in April.

I agree with you Thrawn. As a big TNG fan I would have been mightily upset had one of its canon characters given up the ghost via another series' novel. I would have been very upset that the character was killed in the first place and annoyed with how it was achieved - but the fact that it came to pass in another series' book - well I might have even felt that this was rubbing salt into the wound.

So I think I can both sympathise and empathise with the sadness and (some of) the anger on display here by Janeway/Voyager fans. And I can understand that they want to emote - to some extent.

But, along with the OP, I'd be thinking that it's now time to channel all that negative energy into something far more constructive than what we are seeing here so far along in this (and many other Janeway-related) threads.

 

[KRAD]

First of all, Tay, thank you for your calm, reasoned post that was blissfully free of personal attacks, and for demonstrating that that old saw about honey and vinegar is really true.

To those authors that say that they write for themselves and not for the readers, that’s a poor way of looking at things. I agree that you should write for yourself but when you’re trying to write for the masses, a little thought should be placed on your readers.

After all, without the support of your readers purchasing your books, those royalties will trickle to nothing

You're misunderstanding what is meant by what you paraphrased. As a writer, I don't write for my readers, because that's an unknowable and unquantifiable commodity. Just to give one example from my own work: when Articles of the Federation came out, I got a roughly equal number of readers praising the governmental structure I postulated for the Federation for being an original amalgam of the U.S. and UK systems (with other stuff as well), and slamming me for the governmental structure I postulated being too close to the U.S. and not original at all.

"The readers" isn't a monolithic group (as this thread amply demonstrates). I write to satisfy myself because I know what that actually entails; I don't know what will satisfy my readers until it's too late to change it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Pardon my naivete, as a mere male, but was Monty saying that Janeway, the female captain, should have been protected from non-canonical death in a way that has her character playing by different rules to all the male captains?

I didn't think feminists wanted to be protected and treated differently. I was only pondering at work today, as I held a door open for a grateful but proud feminist female colleague, that it's been a while since a feminist glared at me for opening a door for her. But then, I work in a female-dominated career path and I thought that most feminist causes had been (hard-)won in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

 

[donners22]

Oh well, when I was at uni, there was a small but vocal group calling themselves "womyn" who protested against any perceived sexism (which amounted to pretty much everything). Semantics, the final frontier.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I have been following the numerous exchanges after my postings about the topic without saying anything else because I felt I didn`t have anything new to contribute.

I want to add now that I don`t think Janeway`s death had anything to do with sexism. As a lot of people already said, the Star Trek books have numerous strong and interesting female characters. I think they are no less diverse and important than the male characters in the stories, something I am very grateful for and something that very much contributes to my enjoyment of Star Trek books in general.

I also want to add the point that I thought the Janeway as shown especially in later Voyager seasons WAS written sexist and very annoyingly so. At the beginning she reminded me of a lioness protecting her young, a strong female captain but who is also allowed to keep her femininity. That was taken away from her. Suddenly she dressed more conservatively off duty than my grandparents on old photographs and especially in that story where she loses her memory I faintly recall that she could either be a woman who is able to show her feelings and having a relationship or a captain who had to look tough and “typical male”, who has to be alone on the top. Well, I better don`t start about the holographic lover nonsense.

Also some of her actions turned a character I enjoyed very much at the beginning into the opposite. I don`t consider her to be a good role model for my daughter at all.

I think my six-year-old daughter understands now that we are all people and that it shouldn`t matter what we are but who we are. Holding the door open for a person who needs a bit of a hand is just polite and I do so for people of both genders and also of different ages.

I think Janeway was killed off because it was decided to shake up the audience, for shock value and for getting people to talk. If you really want to kill off a main leading character, she is the best choice because she is the most controversial captain of the TV series. I also think it has something to do with it that it was easier to get rid of her than thinking about it what to do with her as an Admiral. The argument that she was killed so that Voyager books become more interesting doesn`t make much sense to me at this time.

I can live without Janeway in books very easily but nevertheless, I still think that killing off “canon” main characters in books is a mistake except in Mirror Universe or Myriad Universe stories.

 

[Johnhead99]

It's a case of putting your money where your mouth is. If there really are a lot of Voyager/Janeway fans being represented by you, Brit, kimc, et al., show Pocket your economic clout.

No. Please don't. Pocket would then decide to pull the plug on everything then -- Please, buy everything. Buy it multiple times if you want. But no boycotting.

If you go back to the first post in the thread, I was suggesting that they show their clout by buying a lot of copies of a book that represents the stuff they do want to see, rather than boycotting. Positive reinforcement.

Excellent. That is what I like to hear.....er...read rather

The day Star Trek novels go away will be a very sad day. I hope that it will be a day that myself or my children will never have to see.

 

[Gorf]

Suddenly she dressed more conservatively off duty than my grandparents on old photographs and especially in that story where she loses her memory I faintly recall that she could either be a woman who is able to show her feelings and having a relationship or a captain who had to look tough and “typical male”, who has to be alone on the top.

Just out of curiosity because I don't remember this; are you talking about a written story/book or one of the episodes?

And you'll find that many Janeway fans or at least the community that I'm a member of would agree about her style of clothes being utterly ridiculous and boring, and her character having gone downhill and become rather 'stiff' in the later seasons. Gone (at least partly) was the strong female captain, whom we all fell in love with, a captain that could be strong, powerful and compassionate at the same time.

Now I do like her in the later seasons as well and I enjoy the darker aspect in some episodes, but I absolutely loath others.

Just thought I'd try agreeing for once.

 

[LightningStorm]

^Presumably the season 7 two-parter "Workforce".

 

[Gorf]

^Presumably the season 7 two-parter "Workforce".

Ohhhh...I'm an idiot. *smacks head into wall*

Sorry, I should have remembered that one, but I...well didnt. Really rather embarrassing as I love that episode or at least parts of it.

Thanks for helping me with my apparent memoryloss.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Yes, that was the one.

It has been ages that I watched any Voyager episodes and most of them I have never watched again after they appeared for the first time. Voyager is also the only Star Trek series I never bothered buying on DVD.

 

[KRAD]

Y'know, every time I see the subject line, I want to add: "They're good for you and improve your eyesight!"

 

[donners22]

Workforce doesn't really count given that it was a mind-altered Janeway. The finale featured three very strong-willed women.

 

[Steve Roby]

Y'know, every time I see the subject line, I want to add: "They're good for you and improve your eyesight!"

After I started the topic I realized it should have been called "Disgruntled Janeway fans: try using a carrot." Or "Disgruntled Janeway fans: try using a carrot instead of a stick." Or "Janeway gratification: ur doin it wrong."

That still would have been a straight line for the right person, I suppose. But this is not an adults-only board.