Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot

[Thrawn]

At the moment, we have just seen the publication of Destiny. In Destiny, of the four ships, two of them are captained by women. The president of the Federation is a woman. The most important strategic advisor to the president is a woman. More than half of the new characters introduced are women. Two of the ships have more women than men on them, including the Enterprise-E, flagship of what is still either the best selling or second best selling Trek series. The character that saves the entire galaxy at the climax is a woman. The character chosen to be brought forward from DS9 as a captain is a woman. Speaking of DS9, a woman is now in charge of that station, and has been ever since the finale, despite the fact that Sisko has returned. It has a woman chief of security, too. The highest ranking character in New Frontier is a woman; promoted twice, past the series lead. Arguably the most fearsome warrior in KRAD's Klingon Empire series is a woman.

And you think they killed off Janeway because they were scared of powerful women?!

 

[Brit]

Women are not interchangable.

Brit

 

[Mriana]

Both Cori and Brit are right. Gene had a very specific agenda, that was set to a very specific philosophy. That philosophy hasn't been followed since Enterprise.

 

[Thrawn]

Women are not interchangable.

Brit

I never said they were!

Look, either they killed off Janeway because they were afraid of powerful women - which they CLEARLY aren't - or for some other reason, like they genuinely thought it'd make a better story.

 

[Thrawn]

Both Cori and Brit are right. Gene had a very specific agenda, that was set to a very specific philosophy. That philosophy hasn't been followed since Enterprise.

Gene Roddenberry was in charge of TNG when Yar was killed. Yes, the actress wanted to leave, but he could've just transferred her, couldn't he? Why kill her!

Obviously, he hated women.

 

[Marie1]

Both Cori and Brit are right. Gene had a very specific agenda, that was set to a very specific philosophy. That philosophy hasn't been followed since Enterprise.

Perhaps to some extent, but I don't think removing Janeway from the VOY picture for now counts in that regard...

 

[Brit]

Women are not interchangable.

Brit

I never said they were!

Look, either they killed off Janeway because they were afraid of powerful women - which they CLEARLY aren't - or for some other reason, like they genuinely thought it'd make a better story.

And if so they were wrong. We want Janeway. Out of all the women you have named she is the one that was the star of a Trek Series, she is the one powerful woman when you think of Trek Women. She cannot be replaced any more than Picard or Sisko.

The character of Janeway has value to many people and killing her for "one" story, good or bad is intolerable.

Brit

 

[Mriana]

He wasn't exactly in charge. He did not own the rights to the show, because he had sold it. He directed it, yes, but he didn't have as much control as you may think. Not only that, he was NOT the only writer. It could very well be Denise the one who chose death. He did listen to the actors too.

 

[Thrawn]

It's even true that two of the other captains - Kirk and Sisko - were killed off before Janeway was.

How can it possibly be sexist treatment of her character when she's getting the same exact treatment that the others did?

 

[Thrawn]

He wasn't exactly in charge. He did not own the rights to the show, because he had sold it. He directed it, yes, but he didn't have as much control as you may think. Not only that, he was NOT the only writer. It could very well be Denise the one who chose death. He did listen to the actors too.

Denise didn't request her death.

 

[JD]

Wow, now we have the EXACT SAME conversation with the EXACT SAME people in two threads about the EXACT SAME topic.

 

[Thrawn]

And if so they were wrong. We want Janeway. Out of all the women you have named she is the one that was the star of a Trek Series, she is the one powerful woman when you think of Trek Women. She cannot be replaced any more than Picard or Sisko.

The character of Janeway has value to many people and killing her for "one" story, good or bad is intolerable.

Brit

I agree she's irreplaceable. I agree she's the first example you think of when you think of strong women in Star Trek. I agree she has value to many people. And you're certainly well within your rights to say that killing her is a story you don't want to read.

But it doesn't by any stretch of the imagination make the editors sexist.

 

[LightningStorm]

Wow, there is a whole boat-load of new posters on this whole Janeway thing.

First allow me to say Welcome to the discussion, I hope you'll also participate in threads about other books you like/dislike and not just the Before Dishonor and Full Circle threads.

Also, since we have an influx of new posters, I just want to drop a general reminder. Since this is a VERY hot-button issue and highly emotional on both sides of the fence, that everyone please keep the discussions (however long and arduous they may be) CIVIL.

Thankfully all of you have seemed to start of on the right foot and for that we are grateful.

Thank You and carry on.

 

[Monty]

First of all, I'm not going to pretend I'm a big Trek fan. I've watched episodes of every series, but I don't claim to be an expert on any canon except Voyager. Because I ONLY care about Voyager. All this hoo-haa about how you have to know about something to have an opinion about it is ironic (the fox-hunting, etc.): If you don't like Voyager or care that much about Janeway (who IS Voyager), why the hell are you even debating about the killing of her with people who do care?

And it doesn't matter because only a minority care? WTF? Trek is about being in the minority in the first place. That is the spirit of Trek. Even a non-Trekker knows that. Paramount had an opportunity to explore what the franchise would be like with a female captain and they ruined it with the series. They were unwilling to take risks. They have an opportunity to remedy that with a book series - basically create a role where feminism, TRUE FEMINISM is a foregone conclusion. But from what I saw of the series, all you fanboys wanted was cartoonish boobs instead. You got what you wanted; now the girls want what they want.

Let's face it. Trek has been a Good Ol' Boys Club from way back. Hollywood is a Good Ol' Boys Club no matter what Roddenberry had in mind. Berman and Braga decided to keep that tradition going instead of writing material that would allow Janeway to be Janeway. This is why fans are angry that she is being killed off in the books - an opportunity to give a female fanbase (and those who like the idea of exploring a female captaincy) a reset button of some sort. I'm not saying that anyone who's okay with Janeway's literary death is a misogynist, but ignoring a demographic - a demographic that more often than not decides what movies to watch (as any husband or boyfriend knows) - is bad business sense, plain and simple.

So basically, what you are saying is that the fanfic writers should just shut the hell up, make their quilts and doilies and leave the Voyager book series to the testosterone set? Because that's what it sounds like to me. How long did Kirk live in the franchise before he was killed off? There's only one other major captain to be killed off. And she's a woman. How old is Picard now? I know he's older than she is by light years. Can't kill off Sisko; he's African American. The U.S. can deal with a Black President but not a woman President. Generalizations, yes, but not even the tiniest red flag there? How naive are you?

 

[Mriana]

It's even true that two of the other captains - Kirk and Sisko - were killed off before Janeway was.

How can it possibly be sexist treatment of her character when she's getting the same exact treatment that the others did?

Well then, let's just hope she is resurrected like Kirk was many times over. That would make it the exact same treatment. Unless of course, Kirk is a god and he's the only one entitled to a resurrection.

 

[LightningStorm]

Well then, let's just hope she is resurrected like Kirk was ....

So was Sisko...

But then again, I'm of the opinion that he never died to begin with. But, then again again I'm of the opinion that Janeway isn't dead either... Sooo... yeah.

 

[CoriM]

Notice what I said, it was not the editors who made the descion alone, it was a choice made in part, I am sure, because the pervasive feelings in the main subset of Trek fans, some of which I've experienced here. I also said that some may have had to do with power, not gender

Secondly, Sisko was not truly killed, there is a chance for him to return to his family and Kirk's death was also open ended because the effects of the nexus are truly unknown. It remains to be seen whether Janeway's death will remain this open ended.

If you take them as true deaths, though, there is one difference. Neither Kirk nor Sisko, were vilified before their leaving. Janeway was.

 

[Brit]

Then prove that they are not. Your argument is circular, I cannot prove it either but the attitude of some people on this board does have the appearence of sexist behaviour and with Trek Authors posting here along with those that voice a hatred of Janeway. You couple this with the choice of Janeway to be killed and the rise of canon shipper movements at the same time, gives credence to that view.

Again we want a live Janeway. We want Voyager stories not Voyager Characters in Next Gen or DS9 books and we want relationship stories. Why are you so against it. None of this is stepping on any of your toes. It's not changing any of your Next Gen or DS9 books. Appearently to us you don't want Voyager anyway. So why the demand that she die or stay dead.

Brit

 

[Thrawn]

First of all, I'm not going to pretend I'm a big Trek fan. I've watched episodes of every series, but I don't claim to be an expert on any canon except Voyager. Because I ONLY care about Voyager. All this hoo-haa about how you have to know about something to have an opinion about it is ironic (the fox-hunting, etc.): If you don't like Voyager or care that much about Janeway (who IS Voyager), why the hell are you even debating about the killing of her with people who do care?

And it doesn't matter because only a minority care? WTF? Trek is about being in the minority in the first place. That is the spirit of Trek. Even a non-Trekker knows that. Paramount had an opportunity to explore what the franchise would be like with a female captain and they ruined it with the series. They were unwilling to take risks. They have an opportunity to remedy that with a book series - basically create a role where feminism, TRUE FEMINISM is a foregone conclusion. But from what I saw of the series, all you fanboys wanted was cartoonish boobs instead. You got what you wanted; now the girls want what they want.

Let's face it. Trek has been a Good Ol' Boys Club from way back. Hollywood is a Good Ol' Boys Club no matter what Roddenberry had in mind. Berman and Braga decided to keep that tradition going instead of writing material that would allow Janeway to be Janeway. This is why fans are angry that she is being killed off in the books - an opportunity to give a female fanbase (and those who like the idea of exploring a female captaincy) a reset button of some sort. I'm not saying that anyone who's okay with Janeway's literary death is a misogynist, but ignoring a demographic - a demographic that more often than not decides what movies to watch (as any husband or boyfriend knows) - is bad business sense, plain and simple.

So basically, what you are saying is that the fanfic writers should just shut the hell up, make their quilts and doilies and leave the Voyager book series to the testosterone set? Because that's what it sounds like to me. How long did Kirk live in the franchise before he was killed off? There's only one other major captain to be killed off. And she's a woman. How old is Picard now? I know he's older than she is by light years. Can't kill off Sisko; he's African American. The U.S. can deal with a Black President but not a woman President. Generalizations, yes, but not even the tiniest red flag there? How naive are you?

Oh good God almighty.

1) Name all the Star Trek books you've read that've been published in the last 6 years. Shockingly: MANY of them are about female captains! Female captaincy IS being explored, in at least three different ongoing series! And, in fact, female captaincy was NOT being explored in the Voyager relaunch, even before her death, as Chakotay had taken command of Voyager.

2) What on Earth does Hollywood politics have to do with novel writers?

3) Sisko was killed off.

4) I, personally, in no way want cartoonish boobs, and I resent the implication that I do.

5) If Hillary had beaten Obama, do you think people would've been justified in saying "America can deal with a woman president, but clearly not an African American one!"? One of them had to lose, you know.

 

[Thrawn]

Notice what I said, it was not the editors who made the descion alone, it was a choice made in part I am sure because the pervasive feelings in the main subset of Trek fans, some of which I've experienced here.

Secondly, Sisko was not truly killed, there is a chance for him to return t his family and Kirk's death was also open ended because the effects of the nexus are truly unknown. It remains to be seen whether Janeway's death will remain this open ended.

If you take them as true deaths, though, there is one difference. Neither Kirk nor Sisko, were Villiafied before their leaving. Janeway was.

Janeway's death IS that open-ended; her last scene is her flying off with Lady Q to parts unknown.

Sisko was revived, only instead of resuming command, he flew down to Bajor to raise kids. (And just IMAGINE the hell you all would raise if they had Janeway do the same thing.)

Kirk was revived, but the editors deemed that story outside of the main continuity, so it has no impact at all on the primary thrust of Trek novels.

And Janeway was not vilified; she was possessed by an alien entity and manage to keep enough personal strength to be responsible for defeating them in the end.