Downhill From Here:The Auto Bailout’s A Bomb
- Thread starter Dusty Ayres
- Start date
- Status
Partially so...I think many aspects of the auto industry deserved to die. Certainly the bailout didn't make sense. Even by the most conservative estimates we're spending millions for every single stupid auto job "we're saving" and chapter 11 would have allowed the auto companies to trim their liabilities for long term survival while continuing to operate.
Or should this be in another forum?
He's definitely full of hot air. Or at the very least, he has a very tenuous grasp of the realities of capitalism and, in general, American consumerism. Clearly, this is a gent who sees a green world as commercially preferable, ignoring the unfortunate truth that, especially in America, we like our independence - sometimes, sad to say, that includes independence from communal responsibility. Whether it's smarter to use mass transit or not, Americans prefer their cars, and the majority of us prefer to have more car than we need. There's no logical reason for a person who is single to drive an SUV, but that's what happens. There's no logical reason for a soccer mom to drive a Ford Explorer when she can seat just as many little urchins in a far more economical and efficient minivan, but that's what happens. The author also seems to believe that America is primarily urban and becoming more so - it's not; we expanded across this land from sea to shining sea, and in doing so, we stretched out our living spaces to the point where it is largely impractical for the majority of Americans to rely upon even the concept of mass transit; non-automotive transportation couldn't possibly have the density needed in suburban and rural areas to eliminate the need for personal vehicles. And we're not all going to crowd together in tightly-compacted urban areas just so we can. In Europe and Asia, urban density is, in large part, the result of geography; in America, geography, combined with vastly superior transportation at the time it was settled, resulted in a sprawl that was utterly inconceivable before, and in both cases, we have continued in the same way we began, and will likely do so for the long-foreseeable future.
The automakers have made a lot of mistakes, but, contrary to what the pompous and preening senators, all going for their best angle on screen, keep chastising them for, they have built the cars that Americans want. Maybe not what we need, but definitely what we will buy. They are usually quick to cancel cars that don't sell, and, frankly, it would be financially irresponsible for them to build only cars that are 'good for us,' because as a society, we resist them in droves. We are a nation of excess. Nothing short of a dictatorship, with state-run manufacturing, is going to make us be anything else. The auto bailout is not what's absurd - what's absurd is the self-righteous bulls*** of senators who gave nearly half a trillion dollars to banks and Wall Street with no oversight, the result of which was an almost completely null effect on the economy, when what they 'hoped' it would do was free up the credit system and get the banks lending again, and then they give the automakers the 3rd degree over a sum that is less than 5% of that amount! It's the lack of lending, not the lack of viable product, that put the automakers in the massive hole they've found themselves in - people want to buy what they're building, but they can't afford it because the banking bailout has been hoarded by entities that are now asking for billions more. If there had been oversight of the Wall Street bailout, maybe we wouldn't be even talking about one for the automakers. On top of all that, the same self-righteous senators who declare the automakers to be unfit and out of touch with the needs of the people and the world then leave their chambers to hop into gas-guzzling SUVs, into luxury cars of foreign automakers, and onto private planes that they insist the automakers give up. It's a circus, nothing less, and these people are unqualified to be its ringmasters.
The ultimate goals of the author aren't without merit, but one can't sacrifice the most vital machine in American industry and expect that this green economy will happen overnight. How are all of the things he wants going to get built or be converted when millions more Americans are jobless and homeless? At the very least, the auto industry needs to be kept running so it can be a vital part of manufacturing the machinery of the green transportation system - there's no reason why the factories that build cars can't build trains or buses or street cars, or modes of transportation no one has thought of yet, not to mention wind turbines or other alternative energy hardware. And while bankruptcy would allow the automakers to wipe many of their slates clean as far as their liabilities go, Americans are not eager to risk purchasing vital pieces of their lifestyles from companies they think - right or wrong - are on the verge of disappearing due to bankruptcy. It's a stigma that goes beyond the real mechanics of bankruptcy protection, but it is very real to the average consumer. The bailout needs to include the protection and reorganization of bankruptcy without its stigma - the assurance that the company is in a viable financial condition and will continue to support the consumer after their purchase. It needs to be done, for no other reason than, compared to the other bailouts, it's an insignificant amount of money with a greater potential payoff in the end.
^^ Not to mention these same "preening Senators" put mandates on automobiles that drive up the costs. The talk of 35mpg is total bunk, unless Congress can legislate some changes to the laws of Physics.
No offense but that is utter rot, even when talking US gallons there are dozens of cars on the market in Europe right now that easily give 35mpg on average.
Now, the key thing is that none of these models have V8 engines, 0-60 times of less than 8 seconds, are tank-sized or anything similar.
They are all small, practical cars for single individuals or small families. There are also economical versions of 7-seaters like the Nissan Qashqai+2 and the Ford S-Max, all comfortable, nice to drive and with 5-stars in Euro-NCAP tests.
the residents of the USA have to make a choice at some point to drive small cars instead of big ones, settle for a perfectly comfy, driveable and fun yet practical car instead of a big roaring V8 monster.
Don't get me wrong, I love cars, I love sporty numbers and big V8, V10, V12 engines, I like hammering into corners and turbos roaring as you put your foot down...
BUT - the world is starting to realise that the Honda Civic and VW Golf (or Rabbit if you must) or indeed the Ford Focus are a better buy in terms of running costs than a big truck or a big SUV. They are actually a lot more fun to drive as well, and use the BHP of their smaller engines better.
I should rephrase that, because I LOVE older, smaller cars (i.e. a Morris Minor Panel). The problem with Americans is that they don't like smaller cars. Two or three years ago, Honda redesigned the Accord to be "the biggest Accord ever" and in order to power this larger vehicle that can hold more "stuff" and people, it has a V6. Now, a V6 engine (or even a straight-6) can produce as much, or more power, than a V8; however, factor in all of the junk most Americans have in their cars, all of which adds weight, and the fuel savings drop.
Let's not forget that the 35mpg is the FLEET average. Can't have a fleet average when no one is buying more efficient vehicles.
Heck, people are asking why Honda and Toyota are getting FEWER miles per gallon now than 10 years ago. Why? Dual air bags, curtain air bags, and all of the other stuff that adds weight. Lets not forget stability control systems that are being mandated, which will lead to people driving even more carelessly than they already do with that false sense of security from airbags.
One other item you forgot is that Europeans don't have an aversion to diesel fuel like Americans. VW's diesel 1.8L turbo engines easily achieve 48mpg
There's no reason in the world that we should be bailing out Chrysler. Let Cerberus do that.
We don't need three domestic car companies; the market will not support them. GM and Chrysler should merge or maybe better Chrysler should just fold.
And I'm agnostic about "investment in sunrise industries" - when you get down to specifics too much of this stuff is what someone or another thinks is a good idea, untested in the marketplace. Throwing money at pie-in-the-sky projects that give some liberals warm fuzzy hard-ons is even less sensible than bailing out the whole auto industry.
We don't need three domestic car companies; the market will not support them. GM and Chrysler should merge or maybe better Chrysler should just fold.
And I'm agnostic about "investment in sunrise industries" - when you get down to specifics too much of this stuff is what someone or another thinks is a good idea, untested in the marketplace. Throwing money at pie-in-the-sky projects that give some liberals warm fuzzy hard-ons is even less sensible than bailing out the whole auto industry.
Half the problem is that Ford, GM and Chrysler are very inefficient, dragged down by eccessive unionisation and seem to be unable to change.
Here in the UK the Ford Focus is the best-selling car on the market - the Vauxhall Astra does very well too and while there is little penetration for Chrysler in comparison these are perfectly decent cars. Personally I drive a VW and prefer it, but a lot of Fords are bluddy nice - the Galaxy and S-Max would be my first choices for a 7-seater for example.
The fact that the US market for these companies is so bad that their successful European operations are not really making a difference is shocking.
America needs to change its appetites and it is changing its appetites where cars are concerned. If the US is to achieve the holy grail of removing dependence on middle-east oil then they HAVE to.
This new revolution is headed by Honda and VW though - building clever fuel cell vehicles and incredibly efficient production petrol models respectively. Ford/GM/Chrysler are way bewhind, and cutting their R&D budgets will not help.
The real question about the auto bailout is will it just stave off the inevitable? With the added double whammy of mass-produced Chinese cars (shit but cheap) hitting the markets very soon....beginning of the end?
Here in the UK the Ford Focus is the best-selling car on the market - the Vauxhall Astra does very well too and while there is little penetration for Chrysler in comparison these are perfectly decent cars. Personally I drive a VW and prefer it, but a lot of Fords are bluddy nice - the Galaxy and S-Max would be my first choices for a 7-seater for example.
The fact that the US market for these companies is so bad that their successful European operations are not really making a difference is shocking.
America needs to change its appetites and it is changing its appetites where cars are concerned. If the US is to achieve the holy grail of removing dependence on middle-east oil then they HAVE to.
This new revolution is headed by Honda and VW though - building clever fuel cell vehicles and incredibly efficient production petrol models respectively. Ford/GM/Chrysler are way bewhind, and cutting their R&D budgets will not help.
The real question about the auto bailout is will it just stave off the inevitable? With the added double whammy of mass-produced Chinese cars (shit but cheap) hitting the markets very soon....beginning of the end?
- Status