If the situation were Reversed...

[2 of 10]

In the eposide "The Ship" after the Jem-Harar fighter crashes and Sisko and the away party locate the ship, it's not to long after that another Jem-Hadar ship is on the scene. The Vorta Kilana makes a good point pointing out to Benjamine that the ship is property of the Dominion. Sisko just brushes her off saying in essence Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers.

My question is tha if the situation were reversed and the Defient had crashed and the Jem-Hardar had claimed it, would Sisko have accepted the Dominions claim to it no questions asked, I think not, although this is what he expected the Jem-Hadar to do. Is this what they call a double standard...

 

[Jono]

Sisko would cry foul and rant and rave if the roles were reversed. You always want to protect your military secrets from the enemy and you also want to steal/analyse any secrets they have.

 

[2 of 10]

^^
I agree with you, I don't think for one second that Sisko would have just given up the Defient without a fight. Did he expect the Dominion to just give up and walk away...

 

[Navaros]

I agree that the Sisko would not have accepted what Kilana told him in a reverse situation. The Sisko only does what suits his own will, not necessarily what's polite or the right thing to do.

 

[Jono]

^^
I agree with you, I don't think for one second that Sisko would have just given up the Defient without a fight. Did he expect the Dominion to just give up and walk away...

No, he was playing hard ball. He was trapped with no way out and all he had was the ship and what was in it as a bargaining tool. At the best he could have hoped that his team could gather info and he would be able to negotiate with the Vorta for their release for the ship.

In the end the Dominion should have taken the ship with them after they found out about the Changeling's death. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't. The Jem'Hadar might have killed themselves but the Vorta could still have used the ship they came in to destroy the attack ship. Maybe the death of a Founder and her failure affected so much that she made a monumental tactical error.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Sisko only does what suits his own will, not necessarily what's polite or the right thing to do.

It wasn't just him being willful. He's a soldier in a war and he's doing what he needs to do, in order to win. And this wasn't even an example of something terribly "immoral" - it was arguably theft at the worst - he's done far worse.

 

[Navaros]

^

I agree, he's done far worse. That's part of my point. What he did in The Ship is merely one example of a bigger issue that the Sisko is not a moral man. I'm not knocking him for it, to get things done sometimes one must get his hands dirty. Nonetheless, the OP did a good job of pointing out how the Sisko's attitude shown in The Ship to Kilana is disingenuous and hypocritical.

 

[Marie1]

^

I agree, he's done far worse. That's part of my point. What he did in The Ship is merely one example of a bigger issue that the Sisko is not a moral man. I'm not knocking him for it, to get things done sometimes one must get his hands dirty. Nonetheless, the OP did a good job of pointing out how the Sisko's attitude shown in The Ship to Kilana is disingenuous and hypocritical.

Obviously the Jem'Hadar ship was a great find. But I submit that since the Jem'Hadar destroyed Sisko's runabout and Hoya, that maybe he did have a right to keep it. I mean, why not hail the runabout and be like, you better not be after our ship- its ours... go back to looking for whatever you were looking for before. But they destroyed the Runabout, so Sisko and the others had to hide in the Jem'Hadar ship, and killed... at least 3 people. At that point, their right to the ship itself, to me, was forfeit.

 

[FordSVT]

If Sisko had been an idealistically moral man 100% of the time, the Earth would have been reduced to a cinder and the Federation would have been conquered piece by piece, so Im not sorry he wasn't.

 

[KlingonPredator]

There are times when a moral man may do immoral things. War is one of those times when things are done for the greater good. These things have always hapened in wartime,and they always will.

 

[-Brett-]

My question is tha if the situation were reversed and the Defient had crashed and the Jem-Hardar had claimed it, would Sisko have accepted the Dominions claim to it no questions asked, I think not, although this is what he expected the Jem-Hadar to do. Is this what they call a double standard...

You're right that if the situation was reversed, Sisko would've ranted and raved. That doesn't make him a hypocrite, it just makes him someone in the reasonable position of wanting a dangerous enemies millitary secrets and not wanting them to have his.

Another difference is that Sisko knew that he would've honored an enemies surrender where he had no reason to think the Dominion would have done the same. They'd already destroyed the runabout and it's crew without warning or provocation, after all.

 

[aelius]

Actually Sisko did have a legal right to the ship. Salvage law states that any vessel found abandoned (this includes crew being dead) can be claimed by anyone finding it. Interstellar salvage law has been mentioned in several eps of the various series.
And no, Sisko would not have let them have the Defiant. Just because your enemy has a legal right to do something does not mean you should let them do it.

 

[black_dranzer]

Actually Sisko did have a legal right to the ship. Salvage law states that any vessel found abandoned (this includes crew being dead) can be claimed by anyone finding it. Interstellar salvage law has been mentioned in several eps of the various series.

But as the Vorta pointed out, the Dominion doesn't recognise those laws - and, at the time, Sisko was in the Gamma Quadrant, possibly inside Dominion space (albeit if so, it would most likely be on the far fringes). If this was the case, since the Federation claims to respect the laws of all alien cultures (hell, they even let the Klingons put Kirk and McCoy on trial), surely Sisko should have submitted to Dominion law?

In the end the Dominion should have taken the ship with them after they found out about the Changeling's death. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't. The Jem'Hadar might have killed themselves but the Vorta could still have used the ship they came in to destroy the attack ship. Maybe the death of a Founder and her failure affected so much that she made a monumental tactical error.

But the Vorta also pointed out that in reality, they didn't care in the slightest about the ship - it was the Founder that they wanted. Once the Founder was dead, they had no interest in the ship itself.

 

[Marie1]

But what the Vorta should've figured is that since she destroyed the Fed Runabout, Sisko wasn't just going to give them the Dominion ship and sit in the dirt waiting for the Defiant with nothing to show for it. Several of his crew died. Why didn't the stupid Founder turn into a small bug and crawl out of the ship, and get transported to the Dominion one. It obviously knew they were there. Why didn't Kilana think of it, while she had a Jem'Hadar wandering the ship with a stupid sensor? Its not Sisko's fault the Founder died.

 

[Timo]

It seemed clear the Founder was so badly injured it couldn't do anything as complex as move, let alone shapeshift.

And it doesn't seem awfully relevant to me what these people were saying to each other during the course of this episode. Both had an agenda, and neither respected the laws of the other enough to let them give an advantage to the enemy. Words would be empty - only actions would count. Especially since it didn't exactly look as if Sisko's posse would walk out of this alive no matter what.

Allowing Sisko to leave meant the Dominion was bending over backwards. Allowing him to take the ship... That was just plain weird. Perhaps the Vorta was under standing orders to keep relations civil if not entirely peaceful, to allow the invasion plans to proceed more smoothly, and overdid it a bit?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

This is something we consistently fail to understand about the Dominion - the Founders, to them, are everything. They stopped the war and gave up on the entire Alpha Quadrant because Odo agreed to go back to them. One little drop in their ocean was far more important than billions of solids.

Oh, just for the record, the planet was not in Dominion space. Sisko says that in the episode. Of course, what Sisko and the Dominion recognise as "Dominion space" may be two entirely different things.

 

[Timo]

...Sisko's statement might well be relevant also to the Dominion, though - in the sense that the sort of space that Sisko feels is outside the Dominion's reach is also the sort of space that won't provide instant reinforcements for the single vessel that supports the Dominion cause there. So the arrival of the stronger Defiant would terminate the applicability of Dominion law and enforce Federation law, in suitable part...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[black_dranzer]

This is something we consistently fail to understand about the Dominion - the Founders, to them, are everything. They stopped the war and gave up on the entire Alpha Quadrant because Odo agreed to go back to them. One little drop in their ocean was far more important than billions of solids.

Agreed. The Female changeling even said to Weyoun that returning Odo to the Great Link meant more to them than the Alpha Quadrant itself.

Oh, just for the record, the planet was not in Dominion space. Sisko says that in the episode. Of course, what Sisko and the Dominion recognise as "Dominion space" may be two entirely different things.

My bad, I haven't watched the episode in a while. But as you say, since the Federation seem to have a rather...sketchy understanding of exactly how big Dominion space is, it's possible that the Dominion considered it their territory.

And it doesn't seem awfully relevant to me what these people were saying to each other during the course of this episode. Both had an agenda, and neither respected the laws of the other enough to let them give an advantage to the enemy. Words would be empty - only actions would count. Especially since it didn't exactly look as if Sisko's posse would walk out of this alive no matter what.

Allowing Sisko to leave meant the Dominion was bending over backwards. Allowing him to take the ship... That was just plain weird. Perhaps the Vorta was under standing orders to keep relations civil if not entirely peaceful, to allow the invasion plans to proceed more smoothly, and overdid it a bit?

I found it strange that they were willing to let him keep the ship too, since the Dominion doesn't seem the type of power that would just let their technology fall into the hands of an enemy (then again, who is really ), however I got the impression from the Vorta that she was sincere at the end when she told Sisko that she would have let him keep the ship - if they viewed returning Odo home as more important than conquering the Alpha Quadrant, I'm fairly sure rescuing a dying Founder would be more important than one damaged ship in their eyes. It's a shame they weren't just honest with eachother though - who knows how far a Starfleet team helping to save a Founder could have gone towards improving Federation-Dominion relations.

 

[Marie1]

It seemed clear the Founder was so badly injured it couldn't do anything as complex as move, let alone shapeshift.

I thought that maybe the sickening was due to the Founder maintaining shape all that time as that... box or whatever it was. In which case, I think the Founder should've been something over than a box... preferably something with legs.

 

[black_dranzer]

It seemed clear the Founder was so badly injured it couldn't do anything as complex as move, let alone shapeshift.

I thought that maybe the sickening was due to the Founder maintaining shape all that time as that... box or whatever it was. In which case, I think the Founder should've been something over than a box... preferably something with legs.

I dunno...IIRC we've seen Odo maintain shape as an inanimate object for long periods of time (in "Little Green Men" he presumably took the shape of something aboard Quark's ship for the length of the journey to Earth), and the Founders are supposed to be far more skilled at shapeshifting than he is. I always got the impression that the Founder was sick or injured in some way, since I think if it were able to shapeshift or move effectively it would have either attacked or left the ship when Sisko+co came aboard...