Did Voyager make the Borg unscary?
- Thread starter Lucy of Nine
- Start date
Plecostomus
Commodore
As much as I detest VOY, I'd say no they didn't make the Borg unscary.
TNG did that with the idiotic Hugh episodes.
Only after that did VOY continue the decline by introducing Borg Babes, Borg Kids, and probably eventually Borg Pets.
TNG did that with the idiotic Hugh episodes.
Only after that did VOY continue the decline by introducing Borg Babes, Borg Kids, and probably eventually Borg Pets.
I disagree that Voyager made the Borg less scary.
They ended up less scary because the heroes began encountering them on a semi-regular basis and improved their ways of fighting them.
Also, Voyager barely escaped real encounters with the more powerful ships.
In Scorpion they had an advantage of having info the Borg needed and cleverly kept it away to keep the Borg at bay while crossing their territory.
If you recall, every other encounter with the Borg required unconventional way of thinking on Voyager's crew part.
The only episodes that come to mind would probably be when the Diamond chased the Flyer through the TW conduit and fired all those torpedoes at the shuttle (which realistically should have taken only a few hits before losing shields).
The Borg should have missed more times and attribute those misses due to TW interfering with the weapons lock.
The only other encounter would be when Voyager battled a Tactical cube for the first time.
Granted, the crew retreated the moment the away team was assimilated.
But at the same time, let's keep in mind that 7 of 9 was on Voyager who has intricate knowledge of the Borg and is able to likely deflect some of their attacks, therefore prolonging the battle.
Let's not forget that there was a highly advanced Borg drone that was made out of the Doctors emitter in Season 5 (I think) who also enhanced Voyager's systems.
I don't think it was a temporary modification either (only in terms of faster shield modulation, but probably inserted the nanoprobes to improve various technologies, such as shields, weapons and output of weapons).
All of these factors have to be taken into consideration.
The only mess I think the writers made with the Borg was introduction of the Queen.
They were much less capable of making mistakes the first time around when the Queen didn't even exist as a concept in the writers thoughts.
They ended up less scary because the heroes began encountering them on a semi-regular basis and improved their ways of fighting them.
Also, Voyager barely escaped real encounters with the more powerful ships.
In Scorpion they had an advantage of having info the Borg needed and cleverly kept it away to keep the Borg at bay while crossing their territory.
If you recall, every other encounter with the Borg required unconventional way of thinking on Voyager's crew part.
The only episodes that come to mind would probably be when the Diamond chased the Flyer through the TW conduit and fired all those torpedoes at the shuttle (which realistically should have taken only a few hits before losing shields).
The Borg should have missed more times and attribute those misses due to TW interfering with the weapons lock.
The only other encounter would be when Voyager battled a Tactical cube for the first time.
Granted, the crew retreated the moment the away team was assimilated.
But at the same time, let's keep in mind that 7 of 9 was on Voyager who has intricate knowledge of the Borg and is able to likely deflect some of their attacks, therefore prolonging the battle.
Let's not forget that there was a highly advanced Borg drone that was made out of the Doctors emitter in Season 5 (I think) who also enhanced Voyager's systems.
I don't think it was a temporary modification either (only in terms of faster shield modulation, but probably inserted the nanoprobes to improve various technologies, such as shields, weapons and output of weapons).
All of these factors have to be taken into consideration.
The only mess I think the writers made with the Borg was introduction of the Queen.
They were much less capable of making mistakes the first time around when the Queen didn't even exist as a concept in the writers thoughts.
Paramount shoot themselves in the foot.
They suggested the creation of the Borg Queen so TNG's characters would have "someone to relate to and engage with" in FC, forgetting that the whole effectiveness of the Borg was based on the fact that they weren't individuals and you couldn't relate to or reason with them.
They suggested the creation of the Borg Queen so TNG's characters would have "someone to relate to and engage with" in FC, forgetting that the whole effectiveness of the Borg was based on the fact that they weren't individuals and you couldn't relate to or reason with them.
Yes they did because Janeway seemed to dispatch them pretty easily, she also went out of her way to cross paths with them even going as far as stealing technology from them. I think it became a bit of a joke that they seemed to be such a push over that a single ship was able to trump them everytime. It kind of negates the borg theme in first contact, I mean they obviously were not that great a threat to the federation/humanity make a full length film based on them if they were so easily dispatched by a single ship alone in a foreign quadrent was able to defeat them time and again.
whoever made the point about 'reverse assimilation being easy' hit the nail on the head - was it unimatrix zero where they had all been turned into Borg at the end of part one, as some sort of ruse?
it should not be easy to be un-Borgified. in fact, if it had been impossible to rescue someone who had been Borg-ed that would have kept them scary.
but then we'd have no Jean-Luc or seven of nine
or quite a few of Voyager's crew for that matter.
it should not be easy to be un-Borgified. in fact, if it had been impossible to rescue someone who had been Borg-ed that would have kept them scary.
but then we'd have no Jean-Luc or seven of nine
or quite a few of Voyager's crew for that matter.
They made them extremely unscary. Voyager made them fairly blah
and cheesy. I like the Borg the way they were shown in First Contact
and also in Willaim Shatner's The Return. Nonetheless I enjoyed Voyager.
and cheesy. I like the Borg the way they were shown in First Contact
and also in Willaim Shatner's The Return. Nonetheless I enjoyed Voyager.
The Borg were great in Voyager. They weren't made more 'unscary', they were just fleshed out a lot more. All species' have a weakness and in Scorpion we found they couldn't understand what they couldn't assimilate. It made perfect sense for Voyager to be encountering them more often, after all, it is their home quadrant!
I can't think of a tv show where the villain is invincible for the entire run. The Gould, Anubis, Replicators, Ori in SG1 all were eventually found to have some weakness. It would be ridiculous to have an enemy that cannot be defeated. Everyone seems to complain about Voyager, but the same thing happened in DS9 with The Dominion.
Even Q became less scary when Quinn said they weren't omnipotent, they merely had a fantastic understanding of physics.
One thing I didn't like was the introduction of the queen in FC. She was too much of an individual.
I can't think of a tv show where the villain is invincible for the entire run. The Gould, Anubis, Replicators, Ori in SG1 all were eventually found to have some weakness. It would be ridiculous to have an enemy that cannot be defeated. Everyone seems to complain about Voyager, but the same thing happened in DS9 with The Dominion.
Even Q became less scary when Quinn said they weren't omnipotent, they merely had a fantastic understanding of physics.
One thing I didn't like was the introduction of the queen in FC. She was too much of an individual.
You are right that the Dominion started out scary in DS9 before becoming more normal, but they did that by making the Dominion more interesting as characters. Just watch Treachery, Faith and the Great River and you will see how fascinating the Dominion was as a society and as individuals. The Founders were trying to dominate the galaxy out of fear based on previous prejudice against them. The Vorta and Jem'Hadar worshipped the Founders as gods, but at the same time the Jem'Hadar hated the Vorta. The politics of their society was very interesting.
The politics of Borg society was not all that interesting. There were drones and the Queen, and we still debate if the Queen was controlling the drones or if the Queen was just a representative of the collective.
When the female Founder ordered the eradication of the Cardassians in WYLB, it was shocking and a little scary because I didn't realise she had that level of malice in her. When the Borg Queen orders the assimilation or destruction of another civilisation, it just seems like something the Borg would do. It's not shocking or scary, it is just the Borg.
The fact is that the Borg were scary at first, but as we learned more about them they were always doomed to lose their status as a scary villain. It wasn't necessarily Voyager's fault that this happened, any show which chose to explore the Borg further was going to have this problem due to the nature of what the Borg are. Voyager did some interesting things with the Borg and it is up to each individual if they prefer the fleshed out Borg or the scary unknown Borg.
While I do agree with this, I think what Voyager showed about the Borg made Micheal Eddington's statement on DS9 true. The Federation isn't much different from the Borg, they just "aquire" people thru different means. So the Federation & the Borg are opposite sides of the same coin.
It think what also keeps the Borg scary are their sheer numbers. The Borg outnumber the Federation and if they wanted to take us all, they could easily overwhelm Starfleet much like the Clonetroopers overwhelming the Jedi.
It takes every effort for Starfleet to stop one Cube, if the Borg sent two or more the Federation wouldn't stand a chance. Plus even if one Borg survives, theat one Borg has th ability to restart the entire collective all over again. The Borg can never be stopped, they will always exist. So from that point of view, the Borg are still a major threat.
People,
One thing always puzzled me. Aside from the out-of-universe fact that sending the Borg in large numbers would spell the end of the Federation, and therefore any ST series wouldn't survive such an attack, meaning the end of the shows, I always wondered why the Borg didn't send more than a few cubes at a time to assimilate the Federation. I recall that Guinan said of the Borg in their first appearance something to the effect that they never do anything half-way.
As to the OP's question, VOY made the Borg a bit less formidable, but they were still scary at times. I think the scariest was in the ep with the Borg offpsring of Seven and the Doctor, the character called One -- if he were assimilated, because he had 29th century technology in his construction, the Borg would become unstoppable. That sent chills down my spine.
Red Ranger
One thing always puzzled me. Aside from the out-of-universe fact that sending the Borg in large numbers would spell the end of the Federation, and therefore any ST series wouldn't survive such an attack, meaning the end of the shows, I always wondered why the Borg didn't send more than a few cubes at a time to assimilate the Federation. I recall that Guinan said of the Borg in their first appearance something to the effect that they never do anything half-way.
As to the OP's question, VOY made the Borg a bit less formidable, but they were still scary at times. I think the scariest was in the ep with the Borg offpsring of Seven and the Doctor, the character called One -- if he were assimilated, because he had 29th century technology in his construction, the Borg would become unstoppable. That sent chills down my spine.
Red Ranger
One of the likeliest explanations on why the Borg never assimilated Feds by using sheer numbers of cubes was to spur technological development from them ... and the queen gives off an aspect that she's toying with the Feds along the way.
It's a win/win situation by the collective in the long run anyway.
It's a win/win situation by the collective in the long run anyway.
Umm, because the good guys always win in the end - so the more potent the threat, the more ridiculous its futile stumblings in trying to overcome the immortality of the heroes? 
I mean, if the villains aren't especially powerful, then it's all right dramatically to let them win some; sidekicks and the like can give their lives for the drama. But if they are superscary supervillains (and I don't mean the variety that dresses in colorful tights and has a secret hideout in an abandoned warehouse or a distant island), then they automatically have to lose, because they cannot be allowed to do damage commeasurate with their superscary superpowers.
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, if the villains aren't especially powerful, then it's all right dramatically to let them win some; sidekicks and the like can give their lives for the drama. But if they are superscary supervillains (and I don't mean the variety that dresses in colorful tights and has a secret hideout in an abandoned warehouse or a distant island), then they automatically have to lose, because they cannot be allowed to do damage commeasurate with their superscary superpowers.
Timo Saloniemi
Umm, because the good guys always win in the end - so the more potent the threat, the more ridiculous its futile stumblings in trying to overcome the immortality of the heroes?
I mean, if the villains aren't especially powerful, then it's all right dramatically to let them win some; sidekicks and the like can give their lives for the drama. But if they are superscary supervillains (and I don't mean the variety that dresses in colorful tights and has a secret hideout in an abandoned warehouse or a distant island), then they automatically have to lose, because they cannot be allowed to do damage commeasurate with their superscary superpowers.
Timo Saloniemi
Considering the sheer number of worlds destroyed in Destiny, I can't say I'm bothered.
They may have been overdone, but they're still quite scary. Anyone ever been to the Borg Adventure ride at the Star Trek Experience? If one of those things comes at you, you FREAK.
I think it's mostly just that by Voyager technology had advanced enough to put up a decent fight.
I think it's mostly just that by Voyager technology had advanced enough to put up a decent fight.
Norrin Radd
Vice Admiral
Like others, I think the true neutering of the Borg came in Descent. I thought I Borg was still pretty cool. Even though the Enterprise got to know a single Borg drone (Hugh), you could tell that they were still scared shitless about getting anywhere near an actual Borg cube. Descent is where the Borg, or at least many of them, became too "humanized" and "mortal". They had a brief resurgence in First Contact and other then getting their asses kicked, they weren't too bad in Scorpion. But after that, it was definitely down hill.
The problem with the Borg is that they were primarily meant to be akin to monsters you see in horror films. Monsters who you can't negotiate with or truly destroy. That's what made them interesting. When you took that away, there wasn't much left. I mean, there was the theme about gaining your humanity back, but they already did that with the one Hugh episode. Voyager belabored that point with their millions of 7 of 9 episodes, many of which feature the Borg. That character was a one trick pony.
The problem with the Borg is that they were primarily meant to be akin to monsters you see in horror films. Monsters who you can't negotiate with or truly destroy. That's what made them interesting. When you took that away, there wasn't much left. I mean, there was the theme about gaining your humanity back, but they already did that with the one Hugh episode. Voyager belabored that point with their millions of 7 of 9 episodes, many of which feature the Borg. That character was a one trick pony.
Perhaps there's a way to make the Borg Cube scary again, at least for an episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQtbcgBWobA&eurl=http://www.geekologie.com/&feature=player_embedded
Yes, yes, that's much smaller than a Borg Cube. But imagine something like that applied to the scale of a Cube. It's almost like saucer separation for a Cube. Perfection indeed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQtbcgBWobA&eurl=http://www.geekologie.com/&feature=player_embedded
Yes, yes, that's much smaller than a Borg Cube. But imagine something like that applied to the scale of a Cube. It's almost like saucer separation for a Cube. Perfection indeed
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