Y'know, there is that notation in "The Making of Star Trek", and possibly in the Writer's Guide, that the ships of the Enterprise's class are the largest vessels Earth has ever built, which kinda goes against the whole dreadnought thing anyway.
The Wrongs of Starship Design (TOS Version)
- Thread starter Vance
- Start date
On the other hand, on the tech manual's page TO:01:04:00 which shows all four hull types together, the Dreadnaught is only an outline that says "Under construction" thus suggesting that the ships are not yet finished, which would not conflict with TMoST as that is discussing the time of the series, specifically between the second and third seasons and all the stardates in the tech manual are after the series. This also jives with the appropriation stardates given on the lists of names and hull numbers that accompany each class, as the Dreadnought date is quite a bit after all the others, suggesting that they are the final incarnation of the technology as proposed in that manual.
But then the fiction behind how we backwards people in the 20th century even got that manual seems to be that it was accidently broadcast to the Air Force when the Enterprise was in the 60's during "Tomorrow is Yesterday" which was stardate 3115.2 (which is somewhere in the middle of the stardates throughout the manual) and was subsequently released to the public via the Freedom of Information Act or some such. So I guess the stardates could be dismissed if you wanted to.
That is without a doubt the ugliest I've seen in quite a while. I won't even get into the design logic, it's just hideous.
I hate a lot of fan designed stuff though as a lot of it misses out the important element of looking good or ends up being a tiring rehash of the Enterprise elements. Some are good, but the good ones are in the minority.
I quite liked the Deadalus class ship - it looked far more basic in design and different enough from the Constitution class to make it visually interesting. I was happy to see its design upgraded to the Olympic Class later on.
With non-SF ships I still love the classic Romulan warbird. A nice simple design with a nice design with a splash of colour. Ten thumbs up.
And that's after a clean-up job by one of our regulars...
It often happens, though, that one of the viewing angles on a FASA ship turns out more or less okay. I rather like the top view here, as long as I can pretend that the ship is flatter than the side views show, and that the side booms are perhaps more substantial and serve some useful function. The "tucked-in" nacelles could be a nice stealth measure of some sort... Or perhaps this "transporter assault ship" functionality of the Northampton, and of the Chandley, necessitates putting the warp engines and their subspace fields well out of the way of the troop transporters?
Timo Saloniemi
I agree that the top view looks best, though I'm not sure the saucer matches the frog-like rear. Maybe with something making them more connected/blended would look better to my eye.
I could see some logic there of why there are inverted nacelles, though it seems a little over complicated - maybe down to the height or the distance between where Engineering must be to the nacelles - and from an aesthetic view a little odd.
Looking at the linked Andor on that page (though I still wouldn't put that in the pretty category), I prefer that better. It incorporated the saucer more in it's design, it's not as complicated. But then, it looks moe like a Federation-Cardassian hybrid.
Though I should point out - there are far worse designs on that site and I've seen official concept sketches look dreadful.
See, this is one of those thought-processes that seem so common among fans, but which, when you really think it through, make almost no sense.
Why, exactly, does "bigger" means "better?"
Is a 747 "better" than, say, an F-22? Is a Chinook "better" than, say, an Apache Longbow?
Size isn't the primary factor... that's my point.
In the case of the Constitution-class (post-WNMHGB-refit) ships, these twelve ships are the pride of the fleet, no argument about it. They field the most advanced technology, have the most accomplished crews, and have the OVERALL greatest capabilities. They are outfit as not just military vessels (as the original-build Constitution-type ships were) but also as science vessels, and as DIPLOMATIC MISSIONS.
Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, aren't built for exploration, for scientific work, or to spend long periods of time away from home. They aren't expected to be making first-contact very often. They, instead, are used as fleet command-and-control ships, and during peacetime are generally home-ported at a specific Starbase, serving as local security, and as the emergency "on-call" starship for that port and its immediate area of influence. In times of war, the flag staff from that base could transfer all flag operations to the dreadnought and become a "mobile headquarters," capable of defending itself from most attackers, or as being the spearhead of a major assault fleet, and of outrunning most pursuers, if necessary.
The Dreadnought is pure military. The heavy cruiser, on the other hand, is the "face of the Federation." And the 12 "400+ crew" cruisers with full science-vessel systems installed are the best of the best. Not because they're the toughest warships... but rather because they're the best OVERALL ships. "Jacks of all trades," essentially, but nearly as capable as any of the dedicated-purpose ships out there for most missions.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Bigger doesn't mean better, just different, you're right. All the talk of dreadnoughts in and out of the novels, and what I see is that you'd have Garth of Izar in command of one in the 23rd century and Jellicoe in command of one in the 24th, because those guys meant business. I have no idea if Garth did anything but fight, and Jellicoe (the only human besides Barclay that I like in century 24) is the anti-Picard in so many ways that he absolutely deserves a dreadnought.
A better way to put it might be "better" does not necessarily mean "bigger".
Plecostomus
Commodore
For a "season" of our ongoing tabletop RPG I gave the players access to an 11km long hyperbattleship armed with everything. Then I proceeded to place said players in situations where firepower wasn't the answer. Cured the "bigger is better" and "gunship exploration" mentality in just a few sessions.
I've since toned down the ship, it's still huge but it's more of a mobile starbase/ultra-long-range exploration ship than a Borg-smashing battleship of LULZ.
*shrug* My opinion is and will continue to be that cramming a ship full of weapons and adding more power to the weapons and shields takes away from the spirit of Star Trek. Seeking Out New Lifeforms and Civilizations And Promptly Nuking Them From Orbit (It's the Only Way To Be Sure) is not Star Trek as I know it. Using creative problem-solving and sheer balls-itude to get out of bad situations is what I like to see.
I've since toned down the ship, it's still huge but it's more of a mobile starbase/ultra-long-range exploration ship than a Borg-smashing battleship of LULZ.
*shrug* My opinion is and will continue to be that cramming a ship full of weapons and adding more power to the weapons and shields takes away from the spirit of Star Trek. Seeking Out New Lifeforms and Civilizations And Promptly Nuking Them From Orbit (It's the Only Way To Be Sure) is not Star Trek as I know it. Using creative problem-solving and sheer balls-itude to get out of bad situations is what I like to see.
Well, at the time of the series, the DNs hadn't all been built yet, so it's debatable. The Writer's Guide, however, doesn't say anything about the size of the ship, either literally, or in comparison to any other. (It's actually pretty scant on information on the ship, really...)
Complete side question, Vance: Are you really into Star Fleet Battles? Or used to be?
I liked a lot of it, early on, before it turned into 'Kitchen Sink Battles' with everyone having everything and several volumes of rules to explain why it all worked... I find it needlessly cumbersome. (And, I lament the fact that FC, though simpler, is starting to go that route as well.)
Alright. Ever been playing Star Fleet Battles, on a team with Federation ships, and had one of your teammates turn on you?
I just had a bit of an epiphany regarding a proper application of the Ptolemy class, or something like it. Rather than a tug, a colony transport.
I'm thinking a secondary hull up top, ala the Kelvin, a shallower angle on the warp nacelle pylons, and the rest as is.
Then, you have a reason for a "tug" to have a big saucer section, accommodations for all those colonists on the way to wherever they're headed. Take out the science labs and other superfluous stuff, have a minimal crew, and you could probably cram a thousand colonists on that puppy.
Sound like a plan?
I'm thinking a secondary hull up top, ala the Kelvin, a shallower angle on the warp nacelle pylons, and the rest as is.
Then, you have a reason for a "tug" to have a big saucer section, accommodations for all those colonists on the way to wherever they're headed. Take out the science labs and other superfluous stuff, have a minimal crew, and you could probably cram a thousand colonists on that puppy.
Sound like a plan?
Not quite. Ok, story time:They're secretly playing Terran Empire?
I used to roleplay with a group of guys that had had a few other players leave due to life changes (job, school, etc) before I joined. We played 2nd Edition D&D and WEG Star Wars pretty much exclusively - some Mechwarrior on rare occasions. But when the older players had been there, they had played some other stuff, including Star Fleet Battles.
One day I went over to play our regular D&D session, and instead, it turns out that one of the old players (and his 12-year-old son) is in town and has begged them to run Star Fleet Battles, and they had agreed. Two of the other newer players and I looked over the materials and didn't think much of it, but hey, it was Star Trek and we liked that, and we had already planned our Saturday around playing something, so what the heck, right?
So we get started, and I'm put on the Federation team with Vance (the old player's name was Vance) and his son. Each of us has a ship, and Vance is in charge of the fleet, since he's played before and I have no freakin' clue what I'm doing to begin with. So I was cool with that and figured it would be nice to have someone to ask questions if I needed help. Instead, he starts basically just trying to run our ships for us, telling us what to do for everything.
The goal for the teams, I should mention at this point, is a salvage ship with some supertechnology on board. We're supposed to want it, get it, and blow the crap outta anyone else for it.
So I'm getting annoyed with this guy, and also with this game, since there doesn't seem to be any roleplay involved at all. No hailing your opponents to try to work out a peaceful solution, no using transporters for a quick fly-by grab of the supertech, nothing I felt like was in the real spirit of Star Trek - just kill or be killed, and take stuff. And then, for some reason I can't recall, he and his son had to leave the room for a few minutes in the middle of the game.
Despite their not being a mechanic that I had been introduced to for it, I hailed the other teams. I told them that our Commodore and the other Captain were acting highly unusual and disobeying Starfleet protocols, and that if they'd agree, we'd work together to disable their vessels so my crew could get to the bottom of what was going wrong on their ships, we would work together to salvage the object ship, and our various governments would share the supertech. They agreed, and shortly after, my teammates returned.
When we came back around the map and he started giving orders to fire again, I did - on him and his son. As did everyone else on the board. We nailed his butt, and did exactly what we agreed. He was pretty irritated, but we had told him we weren't sure we'd like it before we started, and we definitely didn't.
And so that was that. And I was wondering if this Vance were that Vance. If so, I'd expect him to be quite cross with me again, right now.
Except - I remembered while typing the above that the older player's name was Lance. So.... I've completely wasted your time, and gone way the hell off-topic. Sorry 'bout that.
that is a good story.
There are many, many ships in Trek without visible deflectors. It seems clear that deflectors come in at least two classes: standard and awesome. The Enterprises, the Excelsior, etc. all have an awesome deflector (which has become a swiss army knife by TNG) while several Starfleet and the majority of alien ships just use standard.
The neck of a Klingon Battle Cruiser may not be weak. Perhaps spindly parts are actually quite strong because the small surface area doesn't spread out the shield and structural integrity field so much.
I'd say that the Klingons have always been interested in relatively small ships which pack a lot of punch. The battle cruiser is at least as dangerous as the Constitution, while having significantly less volume. The Bird of Prey is small and dangerous. The Defiant is very much Borg-inspired, because of those cutting beams and the need to keep your eggs in as many different baskets as possible. If your goal is to take on the Federation and Romulans, though, you're free to make a voluminous warship. In terms of performance, maybe there's something to the Federation's friendly behavior and inclusiveness. Over 150 worlds sharing their technological experiences as opposed to strictly Klingon tech and whatever technology they're able to take from their victims. Victims which are generally inferior to the Klingons anyway... and won't be eager to help them reverse engineer anything. The Defiant is a warship born of "good karma."
Regarding that, a recent discussion on different phaser banks, arrays and stripes brought up the interesting fact that the phasers at the corners of the Miranda "roll bar" don't actually fire from the front of those fancy cylinders. Rather, the beams come from two single ball turrets on the sides of the cylinders.
That leaves the cylinders themselves to serve as two small deflectors, intriguingly similar in appearance to the front end of the Constitution secondary hull... They have the same concentric cylindrar surfaces, and even the same bluish hue.
Then again, there are Mirandas that lack the roll bar and don't have the side sponsons (with their again very Constitution-secondary-hull -like "deflector dishes"), either. So "standard deflectors" rather than "small awesome deflectors" would seem to have to be postulated anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
