U.S. Deaths in Iraq & Afghanistan Decline Dramatically in 2008

[Dayton3]

Once again, I never said a thing about invading China. Why do people here keep lying about what I said?

Well, since you said:

I was hoping that it would be a cakewalk with less than 500 U.S. fatalities (and corresponding less Iraqis killed as well), and that the U.S. could move on to invading Iran in 2005 or so, and then invading and liberating North Korea in the 2007-2009 time frame. All leading up to the eradication of the Chinese regime in the 2013-2015 time frame.

It was a natural assumption.

But, apparently, China is the only country that you don't want to invade.

Correct.

Air and naval action. Preemptive ballistic missile strikes against Chinese nuclear facilities.

But no ground invasion.

 

[J.T.B.]

Correct.

Air and naval action. Preemptive ballistic missile strikes against Chinese nuclear facilities.

But no ground invasion.

So, you've said "preemptive," and you've said not without provocation. Which is it?

 

[Misfit Toy]

^Apparently their mere existence is provocation.

 

[Dayton3]

Correct.

Air and naval action. Preemptive ballistic missile strikes against Chinese nuclear facilities.

But no ground invasion.

So, you've said "preemptive," and you've said not without provocation. Which is it?

A "provocation" can be action take short of actual hostilities.

Even if existing conventional combat was underway between the U.S. and China, hitting their nuclear weapons facilities with a nuclear first strike would be considered a "preemptive" attack.

 

[sidious618]

Thus, if the progress can be maintained in Iraq, chances are U.S. losses can be kept at an acceptable level.

This is... this is...

I don't even know where to begin.

There is no such thing as an acceptable level of death. Ever.

 

[Marc]

Iraq and Afghanistan have cost the U.S. what, a whopping 2% of GDP per year.

2% of your gross domestic product is an enormous amount to spend on a war. In 1998, the year for which I have figures, primary and secondary education combined cost the US 3% of its GDP.

At that we probably spent too much.

Too many Americans go to college anyway.

I can't believe that some-one who claims to be a good teacher is actually disparaging the education system and saying that people shouldn't be going on to tertiary education.

But then I guess if people have college education then they won't be stupid enough to fight in the wars he dreams of others fighting but won't won't put the balls on the line himself.

And I'm suprised his father says what dayton claims. Iirc dayton once posted in the TNZ that his father was semi-paralysed or similar fighting in the Korean war.

 

[JonathonWally]

Too many Americans go to college anyway.

Would you offer yourself up as proof that being smart, knowledgeable, and informed is overrated?

 

[warriorsfan]

Better to fight enemies of the U.S. over there than over here.

Yes, thank God for the invasion of Iraq, otherwise we would be fighting the Iraqi Army in our cities as we speak!!!

 

[J.T.B.]

So, you've said "preemptive," and you've said not without provocation. Which is it?

A "provocation" can be action take short of actual hostilities.

Even if existing conventional combat was underway between the U.S. and China, hitting their nuclear weapons facilities with a nuclear first strike would be considered a "preemptive" attack.

So in your schedule for "eradication of the Chinese regime in the 2013-2015 time frame," there's a guaranteed Chinese provocation in there? Seems to me if they don't provoke, you'd have to trump something up to keep your timetable.

Anyway, it's obvious that Dayton3 is talking out his hat and hasn't really any grasp of the complexities and ramifications of what he's proposed. The talk of ABMs is one giveaway, only a fool would risk a nuked city on a system with such spotty success record, and which certainly wouldn't be able to cover millions in South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.

Fortunately, most people with any say in national security would roundly reject the regime change procession proposed above for the load of cobblers it is. Here are a couple of relevant quotes from some experts in the field:

"All of us have heard this term "preventive war" since the earliest days of Hitler. I recall that is about the first time I heard it. In this day and time, if we believe for one second that nuclear fission and fusion, that type of weapon, would be used in such a war — what is a preventive war?

I would say a preventive war, if the words mean anything, is to wage some sort of quick police action in order that you might avoid a terrific cataclysm of destruction later.

A preventive war, to my mind, is an impossibility today. How could you have one if one of its features would be several cities lying in ruins, several cities where many, many thousands of people would be dead and injured and mangled, the transportation systems destroyed, sanitation implements and systems all gone? That isn't preventive war; that is war.

I don't believe there is such a thing; and, frankly, I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing."

--President Dwight D. Eisenhower
1954


"When we say we are going to make the world a democracy, that's too much. And in the attempt, as we're seeing right now, we risk creating more harm than good."

--Brent Scowcroft
National Security Adviser, 1974-1977, 1989-1993
2008


​

--Justin

 

[sidious618]

I still haven't heard about WHY Dayton thinks we should do these things to China but then again since he thinks there is an acceptable level of US solidiers' deaths I imagine one isn't coming.

 

[Dayton3]

2% of your gross domestic product is an enormous amount to spend on a war. In 1998, the year for which I have figures, primary and secondary education combined cost the US 3% of its GDP.

At that we probably spent too much.

Too many Americans go to college anyway.

I can't believe that some-one who claims to be a good teacher is actually disparaging the education system and saying that people shouldn't be going on to tertiary education.

But then I guess if people have college education then they won't be stupid enough to fight in the wars he dreams of others fighting but won't won't put the balls on the line himself.

And I'm suprised his father says what dayton claims. Iirc dayton once posted in the TNZ that his father was semi-paralysed or similar fighting in the Korean war.

Incorrect.

My dad suffered damaged hearing as a result of an exploding shell in the Korean War.

I'm not the only one that claims too many Americans go to college. An article in todays Arkansas Democrat-Gazette Perspective section mentioned it as well.

That the "encouragement" American educators and employers give to young people to go to college is a waste of education resources. And that employers "requiring a college degree" is little more than legalized discrimination for jobs that can be filled for no performance loss by workers with no college degree.

In regards to China and the other nations, naturally no one can count on provocation for war occurring on a time table.

I think the Iranians and North Koreans have already more than justified any military action the U.S. might take by pursuing nuclear weapons programs. Programs that they are treaty bound not to pursue.

China, even by my optimistic timetable, would be far enough in the future that predicting future tensions with the U.S. would be difficult at best.

One death is too many?

Bull.

Every enterprise known to man whether it be military operations, police operations, building a skyscraper, designing cars, developing pharmaceuticals...........all those have basic assumptions regarding an acceptable number of deaths. That is one of the foundations of the insurance industry.

While a single death is a "holocaust" for the family involved.

A single death is not even a noticeable bump in the road for most nations (unless it involves a major leader or scientists or something along those lines).

 

[Squiggy]

And that employers "requiring a college degree" is little more than legalized discrimination for jobs that can be filled for no performance loss by workers with no college degree.

It's the free market. Why do you hate Main Street?

 

[Dayton3]

And that employers "requiring a college degree" is little more than legalized discrimination for jobs that can be filled for no performance loss by workers with no college degree.

It's the free market. Why do you hate Main Street?

No economic market on Earth is a completely "free market".

And your "hate Main Street" is a pointless and needlessly inflammatory sarcastic statement.

Perhaps you need to be reminded about responding respectfully and with civility.

 

[Squiggy]

The day I take lessons from you on acting respectfully and with civility is the day I stop posting pictures of my ass on the internet, Mr. "U.S. losses can be kept at an acceptable level".

 

[Dayton3]

The day I take lessons from you on acting respectfully and with civility is the day I stop posting pictures of my ass on the internet, Mr. "U.S. losses can be kept at an acceptable level".

There is nothing disrespectful and uncivil about "U.S. losses can be kept at an unacceptable level".

Hasn't it occurred to you or anyone here that I myself have a number of family members who are serving in Iraq or have served there (or in Afghanistan).

Do you think I want them to be killed or injured? OF COURSE NOT!!!

But decisions about a nation can't be made while harping on individual tragedies.

 

[cultcross]

The day I take lessons from you on acting respectfully and with civility is the day I stop posting pictures of my ass on the internet, Mr. "U.S. losses can be kept at an acceptable level".

There is nothing disrespectful and uncivil about "U.S. losses can be kept at an unacceptable level".

Hasn't it occurred to you or anyone here that I myself have a number of family members who are serving in Iraq or have served there (or in Afghanistan).

Do you think I want them to be killed or injured? OF COURSE NOT!!!

But decisions about a nation can't be made while harping on individual tragedies.

Yes, it's a good way of forgetting about the true consequences of war to talk in terms of nations and pretend they're distinct from the individuals that inhabit them.

 

[Dayton3]

The day I take lessons from you on acting respectfully and with civility is the day I stop posting pictures of my ass on the internet, Mr. "U.S. losses can be kept at an acceptable level".

There is nothing disrespectful and uncivil about "U.S. losses can be kept at an unacceptable level".

Hasn't it occurred to you or anyone here that I myself have a number of family members who are serving in Iraq or have served there (or in Afghanistan).

Do you think I want them to be killed or injured? OF COURSE NOT!!!

But decisions about a nation can't be made while harping on individual tragedies.

Yes, it's a good way of forgetting about the true consequences of war to talk in terms of nations and pretend they're distinct from the individuals that inhabit them.

How do you expect the United States to fight and win wars with all this crying and wailing about the family of a Marine who appears on the news ten times?

I'm sure you will acknowledge that there are wars the U.S. should fight.

How would this obsession with deaths of U.S. servicemen have effected U.S. involvement in World War II where the U.S. lost more than 400,000 soldiers, sailors and airmen?

People should not obsess over the individual tragedies of people they don't even know.

 

[Squiggy]

Do you think I want them to be killed or injured? OF COURSE NOT!!!

By wanting to invade all of Asia you're wanting to greatly increase those odds.

 

[Misfit Toy]

There is nothing disrespectful and uncivil about "U.S. losses can be kept at an unacceptable level".

Hasn't it occurred to you or anyone here that I myself have a number of family members who are serving in Iraq or have served there (or in Afghanistan).

Do you think I want them to be killed or injured? OF COURSE NOT!!!

No. I think that you consider them to be tools. Tools that can be discarded as soon as their usefulness comes to an end.

 

[sidious618]

Dayton is still ignoring my question.