ENT to TOS tech downgrade in novels?

[Lord Garth]

I'm more interested in the story that explains how Earth went from the Johnny Come Lately of the interstellar community to being a major part of the United Federation of Planets, one of the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant. And how did the Federation go on to become a major player? Was it always the case?

That's the real change, the real development, not "why do TOS and ENT look so different?" I figure we'll probably get to see this after the ENT Romulan War books. Maybe there should be a post Founding of the Federation series since Enterprise is decommissioned in 2161.

 

[JoeZhang]

wasn't Memory Prime a Reeve-Stevens?

Yes it was - and here's part of the quote:

"I mean, any twenty-year-old cruiser has the circuit equivalents of your bridge network laid out in a control computer no bigger than a footlocker. All the circuits can be reconfigured, even redesigned, by computer, and here you starship heroes are, rewiring macrocircuits by hand." Abranand snorted.

"Tell me, Lieutenant," she said carefully as she connected a simulator lead to the four-gate and ran a test signal through it, "have you ever seen a twenty-year-old cruisers circuit complex after it's been hit by a Klingon broad-beam disruptor while travelling at warp seven?" The tell-tale on the simulator lead glowed green. Uhura had finished the circuit.

"Cruisers can't go at warp seven," Abranand said carefully, as if he were expecting a trick question.

"Well, this ship can, mister. And a disruptor blast that connects can drop it out of warp so fast that any quantum switches that just happen to be tunnelling at the microsecond we hit normal space are liable to pop back into existence three meters from where they should be." Uhura stood up from her station and hefted the number-ten board in her hand. "You know where that leaves you?" Abranand shook his head.

"Sitting around waiting for the Klingons with a circuit complex full of more holes than a light sail in the Coal Sack." She smiled at the lieutenant then and, just for the hell of it, batted her eyes at him, too. "Whereas, we starship heroes have circuits large enough to come out of rapid warp translation in the same shape they went into it, and in the event of circuit-burning power surges, alien force beams, or simply spilled coffee two thousand light-years out from the nearest starbase spare-parts depot, we can rebuild every circuit on this ship by hand. That's what I call state of the art."

 

[JD]

I'm more interested in the story that explains how Earth went from the Johnny Come Lately of the interstellar community to being a major part of the United Federation of Planets, one of the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant. And how did the Federation go on to become a major player? Was it always the case?

That's the real change, the real development, not "why do TOS and ENT look so different?" I figure we'll probably get to see this after the ENT Romulan War books. Maybe there should be a post Founding of the Federation series since Enterprise is decommissioned in 2161.

Well, I kinda figured that Earth became so important because it was humans who really helped to bring everyone together.

 

[JoeZhang]

That's the real change, the real development, not "why do TOS and ENT look so different?" I figure we'll probably get to see this after the ENT Romulan War books. Maybe there should be a post Founding of the Federation series since Enterprise is decommissioned in 2161.

It's not actually - it's disguised as a Romulan ship and sent on a secret spying mission allowing the books to continue.

 

[Thrawn]

wasn't Memory Prime a Reeve-Stevens?

Yes it was - and here's part of the quote:

"I mean, any twenty-year-old cruiser has the circuit equivalents of your bridge network laid out in a control computer no bigger than a footlocker. All the circuits can be reconfigured, even redesigned, by computer, and here you starship heroes are, rewiring macrocircuits by hand." Abranand snorted.

"Tell me, Lieutenant," she said carefully as she connected a simulator lead to the four-gate and ran a test signal through it, "have you ever seen a twenty-year-old cruisers circuit complex after it's been hit by a Klingon broad-beam disruptor while travelling at warp seven?" The tell-tale on the simulator lead glowed green. Uhura had finished the circuit.

"Cruisers can't go at warp seven," Abranand said carefully, as if he were expecting a trick question.

"Well, this ship can, mister. And a disruptor blast that connects can drop it out of warp so fast that any quantum switches that just happen to be tunnelling at the microsecond we hit normal space are liable to pop back into existence three meters from where they should be." Uhura stood up from her station and hefted the number-ten board in her hand. "You know where that leaves you?" Abranand shook his head.

"Sitting around waiting for the Klingons with a circuit complex full of more holes than a light sail in the Coal Sack." She smiled at the lieutenant then and, just for the hell of it, batted her eyes at him, too. "Whereas, we starship heroes have circuits large enough to come out of rapid warp translation in the same shape they went into it, and in the event of circuit-burning power surges, alien force beams, or simply spilled coffee two thousand light-years out from the nearest starbase spare-parts depot, we can rebuild every circuit on this ship by hand. That's what I call state of the art."

Hah. That's *awesome*.

 

[Mike Farley]

Has anyone considered this?
The technology on Archer's Enterprise was designed to be used by Humans. At that time Starfleet was primarily a Human only organisation (forget Vulcan observers & Denobulan doctors for a moment). By the time of Kirk's Enterprise it was a multi-species organisation (even though due to real-life budget restraints we didn't get to see that). The 'jelly bean' keys used on the 1701 were designed to be used by species with different appendages, not just a 5 digit hand like Humans. The 23rd century tech may look more antiquated (we all know the real-life explanation) but it by far more superior to that of Archer's time.

And also consider that Sulu can fly The Enterprise with a few brightly colored buttons where Merriweather needs dozens of "more advanced" looking buttons, switches, gauges, and knobs.

And in In a Mirror Darkly the Mirror crew (who are technologically equivalent to the regular universe crew) point out how much more advanced The Defiant is.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Well, I kinda figured that Earth became so important because it was humans who really helped to bring everyone together.

I figured it's because humans are the only race that is really well rounded. All of the other races seem limited, almost as if they had been designed to be archetypes of one particular emotion or aspect of humanity or something.

 

[Procutus]

I find it interesting that the ENT novels are apparently going to try to bridge the gap between 2161 and 2245. The tech aspect I'm curious to see and learn about is the different types of ships that are commissioned in those years, and why in a hundred years time, Fleet starships only advanced from Warp 5 engines to Warp 8. I always thought that Warp 5 seemed really fast for the ENT time period.

All in all, I'm looking forward to this.

 

[Turbo]

I would like to point out that a possible reason for downgrading part of the tech has already been given.

Spoiler: Destiny: Gods of Night

It's possible that Starfleet was forced to change their designs completely in order to avoid future infections from the Romulan virus that turned Columbia against her own fleet. It would also explain why Enterprise was retired in 2161; it may not have been worth the effort to overhaul the ship, and so she was mothballed instead.

And yes, I have been watching entirely too much Battlestar Galactica lately.

EDIT: Whoops, wrong book.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And also consider that Sulu can fly The Enterprise with a few brightly colored buttons where Merriweather needs dozens of "more advanced" looking buttons, switches, gauges, and knobs.

Oh, cut the bleeding heart crap, will ya? We've all got our switches, lights and knobs to deal with. I mean down here, there are literally hundreds and thousands of blinking and beeping and flashing lights...blinking and flashing and beeping...they're blinking and flashing and beeping I CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE! They're blinking and beeping and flashing! Why doesn't somebody pull the PLUG?

Sorry, I had a Shatner moment there.

 

[Turbo]

Oh, Bill. Possibly the only good thing about Airplane II.

 

[William Leisner]

I find it interesting that the ENT novels are apparently going to try to bridge the gap between 2161 and 2245. The tech aspect I'm curious to see and learn about is the different types of ships that are commissioned in those years, and why in a hundred years time, Fleet starships only advanced from Warp 5 engines to Warp 8. I always thought that Warp 5 seemed really fast for the ENT time period.

All in all, I'm looking forward to this.

I think it's far more curious that Cochrane achieved Warp 1 in 2063, and then it wasn't until around 2140, during Archer's test pilot days (and after an entire space and colonial culture was established), that Warp 2 was finally broken... and that then it was only a matter of years to Warp 5. I personally believe the warp scale was just being constantly redefined as science kept making new breakthroughs, and what Kirk called Warp 2/5/8 was not the same velocity that Archer called Warp 2/5/8.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The real issue, it seems, isn't reconciling TOS tech with ENT tech, but with today's tech. A modern cell phone or Blackberry exceeds a TOS communicator in ability and complexity and even rivals a tricorder in some respects. Our modern understanding of neuroscience outpaces what McCoy said 23rd-century medical science was capable of in "The Menagerie." Our genetic and robotic sciences are approaching Trekkish levels already. Of course, a lot of that could be explained as technology loss from WWIII, though that doesn't explain why the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Klingons, etc. aren't vastly more advanced.

One theory that I came across on Usenet, and really quite like, is that the Vulcans are desperately trying to avert the arrival of a transhumanist singularity.

The novels suggest the Vulcans had already gone through a technological explosion that nearly destroyed their civilization and scattered a diaspora across dozens of light years. (Are the Romulans descendants of Vulcan transhumanists? With quantum singularity drives and telepresence weapons, I wonder.) I wouldn't be very surprised if the Vulcans were anxious to keep their neighbouring civilizations from metastasizing in that same way. Earth would be a particular headache for them, since it was populated by technologically precocious and irreponsible people who had warp drive. Between the quiet deletion of data, the mind-melded removal of thoughts and theories from the dangerously avant-garde, and the occasional destructive sabotage, the Vulcan--High Command, Confederacy, whatever--must have been busy.

Of course, the game's up by the 24th century. Just think of the single episode "Up The Long Ladder."

- Wow, we can use the transporters to rejuvenate people! I bet that we can even bring back the dead--

- Forget.

As for the criminally casual creation of sentience of holodecks ("create a character capable of defeating Data"), well, enough said.

 

[Timo]

I find it interesting that the ENT novels are apparently going to try to bridge the gap between 2161 and 2245. The tech aspect I'm curious to see and learn about is the different types of ships that are commissioned in those years, and why in a hundred years time, Fleet starships only advanced from Warp 5 engines to Warp 8. I always thought that Warp 5 seemed really fast for the ENT time period.

All in all, I'm looking forward to this.

I think it's far more curious that Cochrane achieved Warp 1 in 2063, and then it wasn't until around 2140, during Archer's test pilot days (and after an entire space and colonial culture was established), that Warp 2 was finally broken... and that then it was only a matter of years to Warp 5. I personally believe the warp scale was just being constantly redefined as science kept making new breakthroughs, and what Kirk called Warp 2/5/8 was not the same velocity that Archer called Warp 2/5/8.

One could argue that warp seven was the interstellar standard of the 2150s - Vulcans already had ships capable of that, and they had supposedly had those for hundreds if not thousands of years. That was the best that any single star empire could hope to achieve, even if given lots and lots of time.

So the Earthlings struggled up to the level where they became credible members of the interstellar community, after which warp seven tech was dropped onto their laps, and that was it. A sudden jump for which no tech credit went to Earthlings themselves, followed by a long plateau at the standard level.

However, at the same time, Earthlings also managed to create something better than a "single star empire". They created the Federation, which brought in more tech synergy than previous political constructs, and thus helped the member species reach warp eight or better in just a century or so.

As for the hop from Cochrane's warp one to Archer's warp five, this was probably also mostly thanks to foreign help rather than pure native research. Any culture in contact with the interstellar community could get scraps from the big table by paying top dollar, or by spying and stealing, or perhaps by begging and weeping. And once the culture got up to a respectable level, more options would open to it, and eventually it could buy tech parity and warp seven capabilities.

Whether "First Flight" was the first time an Earthling or an Earthship went to warp two is unknown. It's just as possible that this was merely the first time that a Warp Five Project testbed reached warp two; at the same time, other Earth vessels could have been flying around at warp three already, purchased from more advanced aliens, or operating on engines purchased from more advanced aliens, or perhaps using indigenous engines of a dead-end technology type that were able to do better than early Archer engines but could never reach past warp three no matter what.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

Am I the only one who thinks this ‘explaining why ENT stuff looks more advanced than TOS stuff’ planned for the forthcoming Enterprise novels is ridiculous?

I'm certain that the story is more entertaining than a couple of grease monkeys sitting around in Starfleet R&D twirling hyper-wrenches going, "Gee, you know, maybe we should change things up a little and build things in a different style?" Although, to be quite honest, I think the grease-monkey story has some potential to it.

 

[JoeZhang]

One theory that I came across on Usenet, and really quite like, is that the Vulcans are desperately trying to avert the arrival of a transhumanist singularity.

The novels suggest the Vulcans had already gone through a technological explosion that nearly destroyed their civilization and scattered a diaspora across dozens of light years. (Are the Romulans descendants of Vulcan transhumanists? With quantum singularity drives and telepresence weapons, I wonder.) I wouldn't be very surprised if the Vulcans were anxious to keep their neighbouring civilizations from metastasizing in that same way.

It's an interesting idea but it seems a bit too high concept for trek which has been very conservative when discussing the application and possible ramification of technology - everyone seems happy to stick to the "a man in his PJs with a gun and radio". However, it would fit very nicely into a Peter F. Hamilton book!