Equinox ethical question/Ethical questions in Voyager

[Guy Gardener]

Sevens complete psyche is recorded and living as part of the collective in the hive mind (Although she did Lament that the borg only remembered her for what she was and not what she was becoming, and that leaving the collective was more than giving up immortality, but really in fact just dying.), fully capable of being downloaded freshly into a new drone as the same "person" kathy met in Scorpion... Of course if that was true, then Seven would have met herself in Unimatrix 0. So even though Seven did say that the Borg kept a recording of all she was, her flesh would have expired beyond use in a couple decades anyway, but maybe her "personality" was still in file storage because the Borg believed that they would recover the drone soon enough that it would be inefficient o double up on the same distinctiveness? Regardless, if needed, in ten thousand years, if they're still around, the Borg could still be making Anika Hansen Drones (in spirit) if they feel her presence is applicable inside whateve flesh is available.

So really, when they sacrifice drones, they're not really getting rid of anything miportant that can't be replced or replicated later on.

Voyagers writers are always talking about cutting and pasting when they only need to copy and paste.

 

[voyagerfan]

Then we go to "Nothing/Beyond Human" where we see the hologram of the Cardassian Dr Crell Mosset who effectively did a seris of torture hospitals on the bajorans. Was the Dr right in allowing B'Elanna's wishes not be met by allowing Crell operate on her or be used on her and yur feelings on the Bajoran Tabor, do you feel the captain went against his wishes as well?

 

[LLAP]

Then we go to "Nothing/Beyond Human" where we see the hologram of the Cardassian Dr Crell Mosset who effectively did a seris of torture hospitals on the bajorans. Was the Dr right in allowing B'Elanna's wishes not be met by allowing Crell operate on her or be used on her and yur feelings on the Bajoran Tabor, do you feel the captain went against his wishes as well?

I think the Doctor was right. Crell Mosset may have been evil, but I see justification for using him:

1) It wasn't the real Crell Mosset, just a hologram. Even if it was, at least he was trying to do some good.
2) The information he obtained may have been taken immorally, but so has much of the scientific information we use every day. Life is of the uptmost importance and takes precident over vauge notions of 'principle'
3) Using the information does not mean that they approve of the methods because it is always possible to achieve results in a moral way IMO

I think the writers skewed it too heavily in favour of opposing Crell by making him use sinster equipment that may not have been necessary. You only need enough information to save the life, the methods can be altered.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I recall watching an episode of LA Law where some people were trying to get useful medical information suppressed because it was garnered during the war by vivisecting Jewish prisoners. Being Quite young (maybe 7?) at the time, and with most of my knowledge about WWII coming from the Great escape and Hogans heroes, I really couldn't see the point of view of the luddites, even as they're telling stories about how their grandparents where subjected to extreme temperature variances until they were eventually drowned to death...

Even though it's telling people that if they think they can get away with a little vivisection, go for it(!), because advancing science is an imperative... Of course that also means that the space program has to be scrapped, and CDs and anything else the NAZIs invented during their reign of terror...

Have you ever seen Anatomy? A German movie with that girl from the Bourne identity about a league of AntiHippocrates who hunt people to perform medical experiments. The opening scene is quite horrific.

I guess a real (hypothetical) parallel between the two stories would be if after the dust settled that there was enough dead beasties about the place from the conflict that would it have been negligent or inhuman of kathy not to have built her own engine, when she she should be spacing them for burial respectfully... But we got our answer for that in "The Next Emanation"... So, she probably wouldn't, even though Admiral Janeway is a cross between Anorax and Braxton.

If Voyager's crew were perfectly willing to use the medical advances of the Vidiians time after time, despite Kes and Neelix walking around with one Lung each, then it's just par for the course isn't it? Did Janeway ask who many thousands of people had been harvested by the Vidiians when they were curing her in Resolutions, and when Seven said that her understanding of Omega came from the assimilation of 17 worlds, did Janeway tall her to shut the hell up, walk away and erase all data in her mind gathered immorally?

Science has to be blind.

 

[voyagerfan]

Voyager is good for asking all the moral questions of the day. You just don't know what;s gonna happen next

 

[Guy Gardener]

There's a line from Office Space Space. "Every day is worse than the last, so every day is the worst day of my like." Change "worse" to "remotely insane" and that describes the gaping holes in the logic of Voyagers writers which leads to the most wonderful arguments about what they must have meant compared to what they might have meant to what they actually said.

Have you seen Charlie Wilson's War? Tom hanks movie about Afghanistan in the 80s made last year. There was a quote at the end that made me smile... "What we did was a truly beautiful thing, but we screwed up the Endgame." My god I laughed and laughed and laughed that a movie about the delicacy of continuing congressional approvals to backhandedly fund a secret war through third parties made me think of Voyager so easily, but it hit the nail on the head.

If Voyager didn't make me go "What chu talking about Willis" all the time, i doubt I would love it so.

 

[Deks]

Equinox was in a different situation compared to Voyager.
Actually, in the first 2 seasons, even Voyager had a rather tough time.
They even found them selves in situations that were comparable to the Equinox's.
Honestly now ... if you want my opinion ... Ransom may have been at a disadvantage with a smaller (less powerful) ship/crew, but at the same time, they DID find some friendly species and could have extended their stay a bit to complete repairs on the ship and devise methods to adapt to their situation.

In all honesty, I think Ransom went for the quick fix scenario a little too quickly.
Janeway's trip initially was not a fun time either, but they were able to pull through without resorting to what Ransom did.
Even in season 7's 'Void' episode where they had an option of raiding new ships that came into the anomaly, they still decided to not become common thieves and bandits.

Janeway found alternative solutions in dire situations.
Ransom could have as well.

Oh I have no doubt that Janeway would have been tempted to pursue Ransom's way of thinking ... but at the same time, I think she would try to exhaust all other options before doing what Ransom did.

Ransom at first ultimately wanted to release the first creature they were studying, but unfortunately, it ended up dead.
A mistake, but nothing that could not have been remedied.
Instead he and his crew began to hunt those creatures and kill them to get the extra boost to get faster to the AQ.

I agree that Janeway was over-impulsive in her decision to deliver Ransom (and his crew along with the Equinox) to the aliens and could have found a way to salvage the situation ultimately.
Ransom could have decided to surrender to the Arkarians (who would act as mediators for their 'spirits' ) and have them see what can be done in the long run.

I think a way could have been found to preserve the Equinox and have it travel alongside Voyager.
It would be interesting, because there is a possibility that Chakotay would get his hands on that ship (taking into consideration wha the Equinox crew did, I don't think Janeway would allow them just yet to act as freely as before).

Also ... despite what was said about the multi-adaptive forcefield generator, Janeway could have waited for those 14 hours, or increase their efforts and preserve both ships.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Even in season 7's 'Void' episode where they had an option of raiding new ships that came into the anomaly, they still decided to not become common thieves and bandits.

Chakotay and Tuvok in Tandem voted for piracy. It took Janeway all night and a good nights sleep to construct a cogent argument against beating down those people that had what she wanted and needed. She even read and reread the Starfleet Charter to see if there was any way she could condone doing what seemd to be the only option left opene to her... The same Starfleet charter mind you that demanded Ransom hunt and murder space beaties for fuel.

Janeway must have missed that chapter.

Also.

Deadlock.
The Next emination
The Cloud.

And possibly

Deathwish.

 

[kimc]

The same Starfleet charter mind you that demanded Ransom hunt and murder space beaties for fuel.

Janeway must have missed that chapter.

Either you're being ironic or you have it backwards. What Ransom did was a betrayal of all Starfleet supposedly stood for which is what got Janeway so torqued.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The same Starfleet charter mind you that demanded Ransom hunt and murder space beaties for fuel.

Janeway must have missed that chapter.

Either you're being ironic or you have it backwards. What Ransom did was a betrayal of all Starfleet supposedly stood for which is what got Janeway so torqued.

From Equinox

JANEWAY: I might believe that if I hadn't examined your research. These experiments were meticulous and they were brutal. If you'd felt any remorse, you'd never have continued.
RANSOM: Starfleet regulation three, paragraph twelve. In the event of imminent destruction, a Captain is authorised to preserve the lives of his crew by any justifiable means.
JANEWAY: I doubt that protocol covers mass murder.
RANSOM: In my judgment, it did.
JANEWAY: Unacceptable.

vs.

From the Void

JANEWAY: You think we should have taken Valen's food.
TUVOK: Logic suggests we may have to be more opportunistic if we intend to survive.
CHAKOTAY: We may not like Valen's tactics but he and his crew are still alive after five years in here.
JANEWAY: I was thinking about that myself. I thought maybe I could get some guidance from the Federation Charter. I was hoping I'd find a loophole that would allow us to take actions we ordinarily wouldn't take.
CHAKOTAY: Any luck?
JANEWAY: The Charter's a statement of principles, not a practical document.
CHAKOTAY: No section on how to exist in a void.
JANEWAY: No, but I've become convinced that we've got to stick to our principles, not abandon them.
CHAKOTAY: Should the crew be ready to die for those principles?

Given that Chakotay and Tuvok were being written incredibly out of Character, and Janeways response to "Lets be pirates" should have been an instant retort of "f*&^off" (or what ever her vernacular would suppose to the same definition.) she spent hours reading the charter to see if she could find some way to rationalize being Ransom as if she wanted to be Ransom if she could just tweak the law a smidge(Que Sisko's speech about "All it took was my honor, but i can live with that.), y'know or her crew died, but Kathy read "Starfleet Regulation Three" and must have concluded that the vagary of a word like "justifiable" still did not include murder and theft.

She made the right choice. I'm good with that. I just find it hilarious that it took her so long to calculate exactly what the right thing to do was.

However the text above doesn't seem to justify my memory of Janeway inferring that she was reading the Charter before bedtime, or that she was reading and rereading it... I might actually have to watch the show again. Regardless it's a huge document to bone up on first before passing such a simple idea.

 

[Deks]

But if you look at it from a different perspective ... Janeway was in the DQ for a long time by season 7.
She and the crew were tempted to take the 'easy way out', and you can't really blame her for contemplating of the alternative.
In the earlier seasons, it was even more difficult because she wasn't in contact with SF back then.

The 'Void' was a different situation that required some extra thinking and they were surrounded by ships and races that didn't work together and behaved as predators.
Yes, Janeway wanted to see if she can find a loophole within the Federation charter that would allow her to proceed as Tuvok and Chakotay suggested.
Those two when you think about it suggested an alternative solution that most of the other ships in the void adopted in order to survive and it was one of the most obvious solutions staring at them.

Also, Voyager was already in contact with Starfleet, and as such, Janeway wanted to cover her options and see how this reflects on their situation as a whole.

I don't really blame her for taking her time to think about this.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's not easy to murder people for their food, blankets and fuel. Well not for a basically decent human being it isn't. Other species too.

First off you have to tell these buggers you want to steal from, that they do what you tell them or you're going to kill them and you have to mean it. Then you have to make an example of someone to prove that you're serious, then you have to be ready to put down an entire crew if necessary if they look at you funny and then if things do go pear shaped you have to crucify what remains of the crew against the hull of their ship as study tool for the next prey to comply obediently without talking back... And after all that blood you might discovery that their entire food store was 5 jelly beans, so Neelix says that it's such a waste to leave all the people you just murdered rotting on the deck plating when he could make some basically decent soup out of them.

Kathy spent how long going over how many scenarios like that in her head where she killed and stole and liked it? It would have been that insane massacre against the Swarm she instigated just because she didn't know how to respect a line in space maintained by the bloodthirstiness of giant xenophobic space navy all over again. Poor Janeway had to kill thousands of Swarmies (most of their boarder guard, leaving them defenseless from their possibly aggressive neighbors!) before they opted to afford her a wide berth. You can't trust people to act reasonably just because you have the power and the will to kill them.

Remember Archer in Damage? Stealing a little ships warp coils at gun point because Enterprise needed spare parts? He lost crew during that clusterfrak. How do you think Janeway would think that Janeway would feel if Harry might have died while they were all putting their moral compasses into stasis for just a little while? What would she tell harry's parents? "Well basically Mrs Kim, we were involved in a social experiment to see if it was easier to get from A to B if you're a real bastard, and it is, if the little guys you're bullying don't stand up to you." How much of her crew was she willing to lose for the wrong reasons before she thought about being basically decent again?

And as far as faking logs go. Tuvok had been sitting on a lie about a faked log since Star trek VI nearly 80 years earlier. It's not difficult. You'd have to wonder if they thought about faking m/any logs after the fact to put a shine on their legend once they realized how easy it was?