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Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)

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But whatever causes and strings of events have happened to produce the Mirror Universe have no bearing on any synchronizing ghostly force, or chaos theory, or whatever. ...

The Mirror Universe just happens to have produced a few similar looking people with the same name. Does not mean there's a synchronizing force.
If you're saying that every time we have seen the Mirror Universe over the past 40 years, depicting history over four centuries, and we keep seeing the same people in the same roles with the same names, that it's all a cosmic coincidence, then I agree. It's a very convenient coincidence, especially for the producers and the actors.

But if you are citing infinite probabilities in an infinite universe to justify that coincidence, then it's equally likely that there's a Mirror Universe where the I.S.S. Enterprise is has a crew made up solely of adorable kittens (with goatees, of course), or one where Spock's father married an Andorian woman instead of a human, or one where Data looks just like C-3P0 and Worf is a Wookie. In an infinite universe, all of those scenarios would be equally likely.

Not only is it likely, it is TRUE. IF there are infinite universes, there WILL be universes out there, more like the Mirror Universe where cats gained intelligence by some manner and crew the Enterprise, and where Spock's father married an Andorian woman, or a Vulcan, and even Klingon, and where Data looks like C-3PO or Gort, or... etc. etc.

But all that, also doesn't matter when it comes to the Mirror Universe. Just like it was far more likely in our universe that we never evolved - we still did - and it's even more likely our planet never developed life at all - it still did. Just like it is far more likely you threw any of the other billion trillion zillion minus one sequence of dice rolls, then the one you threw, one had to have been thrown and it just happens to be that one sequence you threw. One requires no supernatural force governing those dice rolls.

The Mirror Universe is not bad writing. On the contrary; Mirror Mirror is one of the best written episodes of the original series.
I agree that it was a good episode, and I have liked most of the Mirror Universe sequels through "Deep Space Nine" and "Enterprise" -- but they keep going back to the SAME Mirror Universe over four centuries, and they keep meeting the SAME people, even though the pasts and the futures are both different. It would be one thing if they went to a universe where their counterparts were all Wookies, or adorable kittens, or Andorians, but they keep meeting themselves with different facial hair. And knives.

Yes, if two guys stand at two craps tables and roll dice for an infinite amount of time, then there could be a period of four centuries where every roll at both tables is identical, while past and future rolls are different.

But at some point, one of the craps tables could be buried by molten lava, or an asteroid could hit the table, crushing the dice into powder. That's the point I'm trying to make -- at some point, it becomes physically impossible to have identical dice rolls, even in an infinite universe.
Sure, but it just happens to not be the Mirror Universe. To demand there is some ghostly supernatural force that forces your rolls to be the same during those four centuries however is illogical, and that's what you're doing, not to mention then claiming it's the only possible way of looking at it.

Now, considering the possibility that because the two universes are so similar, they resonate more on a quantum level, and thus when you tear an undirected hole in the fabric of space-time, that hole/connection is far more likely to end up in that universe (which is the way I always looked at it) has a lot more going for it; but I'm not about to claim that the way it is exactly; because I have no real evidence to support that assumption - and the connections could still just be coincidence.

To claim however, that events in the universe itself are governed by an unseen force, I'll disagree with you but won't argue the point, but to claim that's the ONLY way to look at it, now that's just factually wrong and I will argue the point.

We're talking about universes which is each other's mirror opposites. Talking about butterfly wings and little things is meaningless.
Now I agree with this statement -- the Mirror Universe and the Federation Universe are mirror opposites -- reflections of each other.

Just like with a real mirror, you don't need to bend over backwards citing infinite probablities to explain why your mirror reflection just happens to be brushing his teeth every morning at the same exact moment that your are. It's not a coincidence; it's the design of the mirror that things on each side always happen together, and the people on each side always look like each other. It has nothing to do with alternate histories or convergent genetics. We don't need to question or debate why your mirror image chose to come into the bathroom at the same moment you did. We just accept that it's a reflection, and that's just the way mirrors work.

At the end of the day, all the Mirror Universe episodes of "Star Trek" came out of a writer's imagination, not a quantum physics textbook.
There is however, no unseen force that governs your mirror image; it's simply light reflecting off of a reflecting surface. Which is why I myself go with the resonating theory for them constantly ending up there; and because of the resonance it is far far more likely that an unsteered gateway/connection will connect with the Mirror Opposite far far more likely then another universe. (This would of course mean, that the mirror opposite of "our" cat crew universe would connect with its cat crew mirror, and that "our" universe where Sarek married an Andorian would more likely connect with the mirror where he married an Andorian, etc. etc.)

Making up an unseen force that eliminates the free will of entire universes is not something that I'm willing to do.
 
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It's a bit worrying to me that people worry about the intricate minutiae of Star Trek, but don't seem to care for the scientifically sounding nonsense that Orci goes on about in this interview.

Because it's not nonsense, go look it up.
It most certainly IS "nonsense" in that there are zero observations supporting it, zero experimental data supporting it, zero practical theory supporting it.

This gets tossed around as a THEORY, yet it doesn't meet the most basic requirements of a theory. It's not even a hypothesis... since hypotheses are at least based upon some real observation.

It is fantasy. It may be fantasy promulgated by someone who has a scientific background... but that doesn't make it any less fantasy.

Pretending we "know" things that nobody really knows at all... and that there's no possible way that we COULD know... that's fantasy. Call it something else if you wish, but that's what it is.
 
I think the use of the term "unseen force" by TrekGuide and 3DMaster is just unduly confusing this whole issue.

TrekGuide -- When you say "unseen force" (a misnomer in my opinion), don't you simply mean "the writers' intent".

3DMaster -- What is so contentious about TrekGuide's implication that the Mirror Universe is that way (syncronized to TOS) simply because the writers wanted it to be that way -- i.e., the "unseen force" IS THE SAME AS the writers' intent. I thought you were making this same argument.

It seems to me you are both arguing the same thing, just using different terms.

Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting what each of you are saying. I'm too lazy to read every word of the very long posts in the previous pages.:)
 
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It's a bit worrying to me that people worry about the intricate minutiae of Star Trek, but don't seem to care for the scientifically sounding nonsense that Orci goes on about in this interview.

Because it's not nonsense, go look it up.
It most certainly IS "nonsense" in that there are zero observations supporting it, zero experimental data supporting it, zero practical theory supporting it.
The "Many Worlds Interpretation" of Quantum Physics may in fact eventually turn out to be nonsense, but right now there are serious scientists doing serious work on this particular hypothesis. Granted, it may one day be proven to be bunk -- and I grant you that there are seroius quantum physicists today who claim that it is bunk.

You personally may think it's nonsense, but the fact that there are some mainstream scientists who are trying to prove parts of the hypothesis through experimentation should make this hypothesis "serious" enough for Star Trek to use it in a work of science fiction.

Cary -- I can't tell if you are simply criticizing the actual "Many Worlds" Hypothesis, or criticizing the writers of Star Trek XI for alledgedly using this hypothesis in the film. I think you may have a point when you criticize the hypothesis, but there is nothing wrong with a work of science fiction using this hypothesis.

By the way, Happy Holidays to all of those celebrating.
 
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It's a bit worrying to me that people worry about the intricate minutiae of Star Trek, but don't seem to care for the scientifically sounding nonsense that Orci goes on about in this interview.

Because it's not nonsense, go look it up.
It most certainly IS "nonsense" in that there are zero observations supporting it, zero experimental data supporting it, zero practical theory supporting it.

This gets tossed around as a THEORY, yet it doesn't meet the most basic requirements of a theory. It's not even a hypothesis... since hypotheses are at least based upon some real observation.

It is fantasy. It may be fantasy promulgated by someone who has a scientific background... but that doesn't make it any less fantasy.

Pretending we "know" things that nobody really knows at all... and that there's no possible way that we COULD know... that's fantasy. Call it something else if you wish, but that's what it is.


Again, look it up.
 
I think the use of the term "unseen force" by TrekGuide and 3DMaster is just unduly confusing this whole issue.

TrekGuide -- When you say "unseen force" (a misnomer in my opinion), don't you simply mean "the writers' intent".

3DMaster -- What is so contentious about TrekGuide's implication that the Mirror Universe is that way (syncronized to TOS) simply because the writers wanted it to be that way -- i.e., the "unseen force" IS THE SAME AS the writers' intent. I thought you were making this same argument.

It seems to me you are both arguing the same thing, just using different terms.

Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting what each of you are saying. I'm too lazy to read every word of the very long posts in the previous pages.:)

What is so contentious is not his synchronizing force, what is so contentious is his claim that such a force existing is the only valid way to look at it.
 
It's a bit worrying to me that people worry about the intricate minutiae of Star Trek, but don't seem to care for the scientifically sounding nonsense that Orci goes on about in this interview.

Because it's not nonsense, go look it up.
It most certainly IS "nonsense" in that there are zero observations supporting it, zero experimental data supporting it, zero practical theory supporting it.

This gets tossed around as a THEORY, yet it doesn't meet the most basic requirements of a theory. It's not even a hypothesis... since hypotheses are at least based upon some real observation.

It is fantasy. It may be fantasy promulgated by someone who has a scientific background... but that doesn't make it any less fantasy.

Pretending we "know" things that nobody really knows at all... and that there's no possible way that we COULD know... that's fantasy. Call it something else if you wish, but that's what it is.

There have been real-world experimental results which support the idea of a parallel universe - there was that bloke afew years back with the missing electrons.
 
Because it's not nonsense, go look it up.
It most certainly IS "nonsense" in that there are zero observations supporting it, zero experimental data supporting it, zero practical theory supporting it.

This gets tossed around as a THEORY, yet it doesn't meet the most basic requirements of a theory. It's not even a hypothesis... since hypotheses are at least based upon some real observation.

It is fantasy. It may be fantasy promulgated by someone who has a scientific background... but that doesn't make it any less fantasy.

Pretending we "know" things that nobody really knows at all... and that there's no possible way that we COULD know... that's fantasy. Call it something else if you wish, but that's what it is.

There have been real-world experimental results which support the idea of a parallel universe - there was that bloke afew years back with the missing electrons.
Missing electrons in his head ?
 
What is so contentious is not his synchronizing force, what is so contentious is his claim that such a force existing is the only valid way to look at it.

I don't see what "unseen force" it is he is supposedly using.

May the logic be with you? :vulcan:
 
What is so contentious is not his synchronizing force, what is so contentious is his claim that such a force existing is the only valid way to look at it.

I don't see what "unseen force" it is he is supposedly using.

May the logic be with you? :vulcan:
O.k., let a musician solve this. It both exists and it doesn't exist, happy.

I don't see what being a musician has to do with it either.

Trekguide.com has suggested an extremely logical scenario and 3D keeps
referring to something in the argument as an "unseen force", the only thing
it would seem he is refering to is the logic, which makes no sense.
 
What is so contentious is not his synchronizing force, what is so contentious is his claim that such a force existing is the only valid way to look at it.

I don't see what "unseen force" it is he is supposedly using.

May the logic be with you? :vulcan:

The force that synchronizes the two universes, makes it that the same people get born, like you know, we've been talking about for page after page, and that Trekguide proposed existed, but you know, I must have imagined it. :rolleyes:
 
What is so contentious is not his synchronizing force, what is so contentious is his claim that such a force existing is the only valid way to look at it.

I don't see what "unseen force" it is he is supposedly using.

May the logic be with you? :vulcan:

The force that synchronizes the two universes, makes it that the same people get born, like you know, we've been talking about for page after page, and that Trekguide proposed existed, but you know, I must have imagined it. :rolleyes:

^
^^ Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he said the "unseen force" is simply the writer. He said there is no explanation needed to describe the synchronization , it's just enough to say that "the 'unseen' writer wants it to be that way". (personally, I think it is more straightforward to simply say 'writer' in lieu of 'unseen force' -- the use of that term seems to be the issue here.)

I thought that you were saying the same thing -- i.e., it isn't important to know why the MU is syncronized to the TOS universe; it's simply the wrtier's intent. Hence the reason I'm confused over what you two are arguing about.
 
I don't see what "unseen force" it is he is supposedly using.

May the logic be with you? :vulcan:

The force that synchronizes the two universes, makes it that the same people get born, like you know, we've been talking about for page after page, and that Trekguide proposed existed, but you know, I must have imagined it. :rolleyes:

^
^^ Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he said the "unseen force" is simply the writer. He said there is no explanation needed to describe the synchronization , it's just enough to say that "the 'unseen' writer wants it to be that way". (personally, I think it is more straightforward to simply say 'writer' in lieu of 'unseen force' -- the use of that term seems to be the issue here.)

No, that's just what is out-of-universe name for it is. Within universe, or rather multiverse, there's that force that makes it synchronized.

I thought that you were saying the same thing -- i.e., it isn't important to know why the MU is syncronized to the TOS universe; it's simply the wrtier's intent. Hence the reason I'm confused over what you two are arguing about.

No, what I've been saying is that there's no reason it's synchronized at all, it just happens to have similar people. A synchronizing force is only one of many explanations, while Trekguide claimed it was the ONLY explanation.
 
^
^^ Yes -- I agree that "synchronized" is not an accurate term.

I was thinking more along the lines of a de facto synchronization -- that is, nothing is actually sychronized, but the resulting universe "happens to be" synchronized purely by chance.
 
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