Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)
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We've had several fairly involved suppositions from several parties about how this thing or that might work in this or that context. I think that, if anything, being able to think "Okay, I don't agree with that, but that's okay -- it's a fictional universe (or universes, in this case); I'll think this other thing and not get too invested in whether any of it is right or wrong. It's all just opinion, using real-world science as a basis where appropriate." As long as things are kept in perspective, I don't know that it's even overthought; it's an exercise, and within reasonable limits, we're allowed to do that. As long as perspective is not lost.
Let's see if this helps things make sense, along with getting things back on track....
I imagine that will be answered in the comic, or in the movie itself.
I mean, exactly how did the Enterprise-E crew know that the Borg assimilated 21st Century Earth? The answer there was in their own movie.
Let's see if this helps things make sense, along with getting things back on track....
If the original timeline is unaffected, then why should Spock care enough to travel back in time in the first place?
Orci's explanation is BS.
I believe we posted at the same time.
Um... anyone think instead of noticing differences in the timeline he
found out about Nero and his plan while on Romulus? He would then be
following him back to stop him. Not going back to fix something that
already went wrong.
We have no idea why Spock decides to go back in time. I'm sure there are many valid story ideas that can be told that makes sense of Spock going back to the TOS era, like trekkerguy's and Cyke101's ideas.
Like Cyke101 said, the same argument about "how did they know their timeline had changed" could have been made about Picard and crew in First Contact, but the writers found a way to make the Enterpise's crew aware of the change.
Why not wait for the film to come out. Maybe, just maybe, the question about Old Spock's knowledge of the timeline change will be answered in the film.
Like Cyke101 said, the same argument about "how did they know their timeline had changed" could have been made about Picard and crew in First Contact, but the writers found a way to make the Enterpise's crew aware of the change.
Why not wait for the film to come out. Maybe, just maybe, the question about Old Spock's knowledge of the timeline change will be answered in the film.
Personally, I'll be happier if this movie ties into established trek history, instead of being an alternate timeline/universe/ wtf ever.
Either way, I'm seeing the movie and the trailer is appealing to me.
Just think a reasonable plot/movie could have been developed, including Nimoy, that did not use time travel. I really think that would've hit a mainstream audience better as well.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Old Spock is not like First Contact. First Contact had the Enterprise crew being in the future from whence the time travel occurred, going into the very time vortex that was used for the time travel.
This time around, old Spock is NOT in the timeline that any time travel occurred. Old Spock comes from the alternate timeline where Nero landed. This Spock could never see any change, because he's the guy that results from the change; he'd never see anyone travel back in time, he'd see no changes, etc. etc.
This time around, old Spock is NOT in the timeline that any time travel occurred. Old Spock comes from the alternate timeline where Nero landed. This Spock could never see any change, because he's the guy that results from the change; he'd never see anyone travel back in time, he'd see no changes, etc. etc.
It's a bit worrying to me that people worry about the intricate minutiae of Star Trek, but don't seem to care for the scientifically sounding nonsense that Orci goes on about in this interview. I can't really make out whether or not he's serious or just making fun of the interviewer who keeps asking very similar questions over and over. Probably it's because we're used to nonsensical technobabble in Trek. 
It does bug me a bit though, since here the pseudo-science is not used in fiction, but in an interview about fiction, thereby seemingly lifting it to a more real status for the viewer/reader.
I'm not saying science fiction cannot deal with 'out there' concepts like the many worlds interpretation (that's right, interpretation, not theory), but I'd like the sf writers who employ it not to sell it as something that is somehow an unshakable part of the 'greatest most awesome scientific theory of all time'. Popularising science is a great thing, if done with the proper amount of knowledge and respect of real science. It's almost like canon.
And to those who are afraid that this interpretation of the time travel in Star Trek XI will diminish their enjoyment of the film: as long as this interpretation is not on screen in the film, it's not canon.
For me, I just try to ignore such convoluted in-franchise explanation when going into the movie and hope to enjoy a new story about characters that are hopefully very similar to the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy I've come to enjoy in the previous series and films. And I hope no non-Trek fans come across this interview, because I think any member of the 'general audience' who reads it will not touch the film with a ten foot pole.
It does bug me a bit though, since here the pseudo-science is not used in fiction, but in an interview about fiction, thereby seemingly lifting it to a more real status for the viewer/reader.I'm not saying science fiction cannot deal with 'out there' concepts like the many worlds interpretation (that's right, interpretation, not theory), but I'd like the sf writers who employ it not to sell it as something that is somehow an unshakable part of the 'greatest most awesome scientific theory of all time'. Popularising science is a great thing, if done with the proper amount of knowledge and respect of real science. It's almost like canon.
And to those who are afraid that this interpretation of the time travel in Star Trek XI will diminish their enjoyment of the film: as long as this interpretation is not on screen in the film, it's not canon.
For me, I just try to ignore such convoluted in-franchise explanation when going into the movie and hope to enjoy a new story about characters that are hopefully very similar to the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy I've come to enjoy in the previous series and films. And I hope no non-Trek fans come across this interview, because I think any member of the 'general audience' who reads it will not touch the film with a ten foot pole.
Is the fact that many people die each day a justification for not trying to help those that you can help?
You don't know that for sure. None of us do.
Well, I could present a "logical" explanation of how Guinan was aware that the timeline was "wrong" without her having any innate supernatural senses. (I guess we have to put the word "logical" in quotes, since, like "timeline," we each have our own personal definition of the word).
Remember, Guinan first met Picard in the year 1900 during the predestination paradox of "Time's Arrow, Part II." That was the Picard of the "Lt. Worf" timeline, AFTER HE HAD MET SELA. Picard and Guinan spent a lot of time alone together (perhaps chatting about the nature of time paradoxes, and half-Romulan daughters of dead officers from the future).
Then, around the year 2300, Guinan was briefly trapped in the timeless Nexus before being rescued by the Enterprise-B. There she again met Picard from the "Lt. Worf" timeline (again, AFTER Picard had met Sela, and after Picard had known Guinan both in the past and the present).
So, before Picard was even born in any timeline, Guinan had already met him twice in all timelines.
Then Picard was born.
Then the Enterprise-C disappeared into the rift during its battle with the Romulans.
Then, 20 years later, the Federation was at war with the Klingon Empire.
Then Guinan joined the crew of the Enterprise-D, where she met Picard for the third time (the first time from Picard's point of view). But this Picard and his security chief, Lt. Yar, did not fit with what Guinan remembered of Picard and his crew the last two times she had met him in the past. So, when the time rift and the Enterprise-C appeared from the past, Guinan realized that she needed to change something in order to restore the future of the Picard she had met in 1900 and in the Nexus.
So, one could argue, the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise" were merely a loop passing through an alternate timeline but still part of the predestination paradox of "Time's Arrow."
In other words, the events of "Time's Arrow" didn't just create a loop causing themselves, but they also caused Guinan to change the past in "Yesterday's Enterprise" in order to create the new timeline that she had already witnessed in 1900 (when she met Picard, who had already met Sela, who only existed because Guinan had told her mother to go back in time, which Guinan only did because she had already met, twice, the Picard from the new timeline that Yar had not yet created).
And there you have yet another fine example of my famous, trademarked Logical Pretzel™.
(I challenge anybody to find a "logical," or factual, flaw in my Pretzel™.)
I didn't say the reason Old Spock knows about the time change is the same or similar to the reason Picard knew about it in FC. What I said was that FC gave us a reason for Picard and crew knowing about the change in the timeline, and it is very possible that ST:XI will also give us a reason the Old Spock knows the timeline has changed -- or possibly a reason for Spock time traveling that has nothing to do with him knowing the timeline changed. And, perhaps (just perhaps) Old Spock is NOT from the familiar TOS timeline and is actually from the alternate unverse; perhaps the plot of this whole film is totally contained within the alternate universe.
What I'm saying is that it people are criticizing the plot details (such as the reason for Old Spock wanting to time travel) before we even know those plot details -- hell, we don't even know the actual plot yet, let alone the details.
What I'm saying is that maybe we should find out more about the plot of this film before we claim that the plot does not make sense.
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I dunno. Are they cute? Rich?
Obviously, or they would be beyond help to begin with.
Hah! That's so true. That is SO true. It's about time someone said it.
I will point out these to bits from the interview:
Orci seems to be saying that what is at stake in the timeline created by Nero is a more important conflict than simply returning things to a "correct" timeline. So, the question is whether or not what's at stake affects the timeline from which Nero came or not. Apparently, it does not.
So, if our assumptions about Nero's motives are correct, Nero himself has it wrong. Preventing Kirk from being born, entering Starfleet, or whatever will simply create a new universe. It won't erase the Kirk he knew from the timeline he came from.
That kinda does get to what 3D (and I before, as well, frankly) said: if the timeline Nero came from is chugging along swimmingly, how does that old Spock know of the creation of the alternate universe, and why is it imperative that he get involved in it? Is this old Spock even from "our" timeline?
Obviously, we simply don't know the stakes involved in this movie, yet. I'm sure we'll get good answers to those questions. At least I hope so.
That said, we can rest assured that all the possiblities discussed here will unfold during some version of the movie playing in some universe. And in one of those universes, I will be watching the movie with my wife, Tori Praver. Lucky other me.
First, I don't remember why we're talking about the Mirror Universe in a thread about timelines, and if I'm the one who brought it up, I'm sorry.
My point was this: In alternate timelines, as depicted in "Star Trek" and elsewhere, each reality tends to have the same basic laws of science -- atoms, electrons, gravity, biology, genetics, thermodynamics, entropy, etc. That means, even in an "infinite" number of alternate timelines, NONE will have a square-shaped Earth instead of a round one, because all realities will have gravity. (If you want to argue that there are realities without gravity, then we will have to redefine the word "reality.")
So, based on observations, it appears that the Mirror Universe and the Federation Universe -- which are both EQUALLY REAL, in case there was any question -- each follow the basic laws of science on their own (if you ignore the existence of the other Universe).
That is, it makes perfect sense for Captain Kirk's parents to have a son, and for that son to become a starship captain, and to have Spock and Uhura and Sulu and McCoy on his crew, regardless of what Universe they are in. None of those events, happening once, violates the laws of physics or biology or thermodynamics or Chaos Theory.
But then you have to apply Chaos Theory over time. I believe the theory states that small changes, over time, inevitably lead to bigger changes.
I saw a Ray Bradbury movie on TV last week, where some time travelers went back to see dinosaurs, someone accidentally stepped on a single butterfly in 65 million B.C., and that screwed up all of mammalian evolution by the time they got home, so that all of human society started to disappear. A small change in history, over time, led to a major change at the genetic level in the future.
This Butterfly Effect is a natural extrapolation of Chaos Theory, as it applies to time travel stories. For example, in "Star Trek: First Contact," the Borg went back in time to 2063 and killed Zefram Cochrane, and 300 years later we saw an assimilated Earth and there were no humans alive anywhere in the Galaxy. That means that after Cochrane's death, there would never be a Kirk or Uhura or Spock or Sulu or Picard or Data or anyone else whom we've seen in the original timeline.
In "Parallels," we saw many different timelines that all branched off at different points in history, and as time went on, each timeline became more and more different from any other.
In Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series, it was stated that future history could be calculated for thousands of years in general -- i.e., which Galactic Empires would rise and fall, which political or social groups would gain power, etc. -- but small things like an individual person's name or genetic code could not be predicted even a few decades out, because those small-scale traits are "random" and unpredictable.
So, following the laws of physics, biology and Chaos Theory in any timeline, any small change to the "natural" chain of events will lead to larger changes over time -- it will snowball, gain momentum.
If you go back in time 10 minutes and kill one person, then there will be just one less person in the Universe. But after 100 years, all of that person's grandchildren and their contributions to history will never exist (even if you define "contributions to history" as just eating food, breathing air, and stepping on the occasional butterfly). After 400 years, the entire genome of the species will be different -- i.e., no single person with the same genetic code will exist who would have existed in the original timeline. That's the Butterfly Effect that I was talking about -- as time goes on, small differences always lead to bigger differences.
But back to "Star Trek": We have seen both the Mirror Universe and the Federation Universe over a span of four centuries. At the beginning of "In a Mirror, Darkly," we saw Mirror-Cochrane raiding the Vulcan ship during first contact, and the opening credits showed Mirror-Armstrong planting the Terran Empire flag on the Moon. The Terran Emprie has existed for Centuries, affecting not only Earth's history, but the histories of every other planet in the quadrant.
Centuries later, we would see Mirror-Archer, Mirror-T'Pol, Mirror-Spock, Mirror-Kirk, Mirror-Worf, Mirror-Sisko, Mirror-Tuvok, Mirror-Kira, and and many other characters -- and each of these characters had a specific genetic code, each derived from one specific sperm fertilizing one specific egg at one specific second. The random chain of events that led to all of their ancestors not only meeting, but conceiving a child at one particular moment, cannot possibly be replicated through any other chain of historical events (just like, even in an infinite number of universes, Earth would never be square, due to the same laws of physics in all universes).
But then, if you look at the Federation Universe, which also has the same laws of gravity, genetics, and Chaos Theory as the Mirror Universe, you see not only Cochrane in the 21st century, but Archer in the 22nd century, Kirk and Spock in the 23rd century, and Worf and Sisko and Tuvok in the 24th century, all with THE SAME EXACT GENETIC CODE as their counterparts in the Mirror Universe, which means that, despite the Galaxy-wide differences in history over four centuries (or billions of years, if you assume the Mirror Universe has always existed), Galactic wars where millions of people live or die, hundreds of starships are destroyed, etc. -- major events that affect every person on every planet in the Galaxy -- the same couples keep meeting, getting married, and conceiving the same child with the same name, with the same DNA from the same sperm and the same egg at the same second, even though every other event in the universe is different.
Over the course of four centuries in two Universes with different histories (which become more different with each passing year), it becomes physically impossible for the same person with the same DNA to be born in both Universes -- let alone thousands or billions of identical people with identical DNA, over four centuries.
It's not just an unlikely coincidence -- it's a physical impossibility, just like Earth being square.
And just like if you saw an alternate reality where Earth IS square, if you see two realities where history is different for centuries but individual people are genetically identical in each reality, then you MUST assume that there is some supernatural force operating outside the known laws of physics, genetics, and causality at work. (In the case of the Mirror Universe, that supernatural force is the writers of the episodes.)
In terms of time travel or alternate realities, there is no scientific explanation for the Mirror Universe and the Federation Universe to have genetically identical individuals in both Universes. Things as "random" as genetics cannot be replicated when you change the surrounding conditions.
So among all the alternate realities and divergent timelines depicted in "Star Trek," the pairing of the Mirror Universe and Federation Universe remain unique -- for centuries they have remained "artificially synchronized" at the genetic level, while everything else in the Universe is different. This is physically impossible, assuming the same physical possibilities in both universes.
In fact, the only way the Mirror Universe and the Federation Universe could both exist as depicted would be if one or both of them were a work of fiction.
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