First Officers
- Thread starter therritn
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That "for example" is a bit problematic for TOS, because in that show we never saw an XO who wouldn't have been Spock.
Okay, we did see Pike's Number One in the flashbacks of "The Menagerie", seemingly doing navigator or helm duties in addition to being the XO, and wearing command colors and Lieutenant rank. Spock had also worn command colors and seeming Lieutenant rank when apparently being Kirk's XO (without an obvious double job, although we might argue he could have been the Science Officer back then already) in the second pilot "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
And we did see the navigator of Captain Ramart in "Charlie X". Mr Ramart himself appeared to have the rank of Commander, and his navigator Mr Nellis was a Lieutenant, both in the gold shirt of command (courtesy of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" surplus wardrobe). We might argue that Lieutenant Nellis was Ramart's second-in-command, with the same double job that Pike's unnamed Lieutenant also held. Or then we might not.
So I'd hold that "usually" for the time being. Spock is the only confirmed case of a double job; Pike's Number One did play with helm console buttons, but perhaps that wasn't a "job" as such; and Ramart's navigator may or may not have been his XO.
Timo Saloniemi
Okay, we did see Pike's Number One in the flashbacks of "The Menagerie", seemingly doing navigator or helm duties in addition to being the XO, and wearing command colors and Lieutenant rank. Spock had also worn command colors and seeming Lieutenant rank when apparently being Kirk's XO (without an obvious double job, although we might argue he could have been the Science Officer back then already) in the second pilot "Where No Man Has Gone Before".
And we did see the navigator of Captain Ramart in "Charlie X". Mr Ramart himself appeared to have the rank of Commander, and his navigator Mr Nellis was a Lieutenant, both in the gold shirt of command (courtesy of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" surplus wardrobe). We might argue that Lieutenant Nellis was Ramart's second-in-command, with the same double job that Pike's unnamed Lieutenant also held. Or then we might not.
So I'd hold that "usually" for the time being. Spock is the only confirmed case of a double job; Pike's Number One did play with helm console buttons, but perhaps that wasn't a "job" as such; and Ramart's navigator may or may not have been his XO.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, in The Cage/The Menagerie, Number One sat at the Helsman's station, didn't she?
Aside from that, did we actually see any other first officers in TOS?
EDIT:
In ENT, T'Pol doubled as first officer and science officer as well.
In TMP, it got really complicated:
1) Decker is first officer and Sonak is science officer.
2) Sonak is killed: Decker is first officer & science officer.
3) Spock comes aboard: Decker is first officer and Spock is science officer.
4) Decker is "missing in action": Spock is presumably first officer & science officer.
The question is who was supposed to be first officer prior to the demotion of Captain Decker? Sonak?
In TWOK, Chekov was the first officer of the Reliant and it really didn't become clear whether he held any other posts on the ship.
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We don't know what the left-hand seat on the helm console was configured for on Pike's bridge. We know that this was helm position on Kirk's ship in the regular episodes, but the backstage material of "The Cage" established Joe Tyler on the right-hand seat as Pike's helmsman. And we know that a single person could do all the helming and navigating on Archer's earlier ship (although no doubt assisted by a whole department of navigators somewhere belowdecks). So Number One's pulpit might have been for XO duties specifically.
We twice visited other starships, and both times the crews were dead. On the Exeter, we never learned what Tracey's XO looked like or what shirt color he or she wore. On the Defiant, the redshirt Ensign or Crewman strangling the Captain might or might not have been one of his bridge officers, and might or might not have had something to do with the XO position.
People from other starships only visited Kirk's ship on rare occasions, and only the abovementioned Ramart took his fellow officers with him. On starbase visits, nobody was specified as anybody's XO.
That was pretty complicated: for the first two seasons, she wasn't Starfleet but Vulcan Defense Force, and her position as XO and Science Officer was basically honorary and granted by Archer. For the third season, she resigned from the Vulcan service and essentially became a civilian science consultant for Starfleet, retaining the honorary XO position. Only on the fourth season did she gain actual Starfleet rank, and a formal XO position, while retaining the Science Officer job.
Since the ship wasn't supposed to actually launch for several weeks or months yet, odds are that the XO was nowhere to be seen. When Kirk hastily summoned personnel to the ship for a premature launch, he had already decided to demote Captain Decker to XO, so he wouldn't have called the original XO, who thus would probably have merrily continued his or her fishing trip or whatever.
He did wear the grey collar of Sciences or Services or whatever, as opposed to the white of command or even the gold of "near-command" (as worn by Sulu or Scotty). So one might argue he, too, was the XO and the SO simultaneously.
Timo Saloniemi
The first officer should at least be one of the bridge officers, I guess. Doubling as first officer and chief engineer? I doubt that would be practical. He/she would be in the turbolift half of the time. 
Well, we don't know that the braid is parallel to that of later TOS, Timo, and given that Mitchell alone is addressed as "Lt. Commander," it would be highly unlikely. Ramart et al wear hand-me-down uniforms, but I always wondered if they were part of a Starfleet merchant marine with a less formal rank insignia (two stripes for captain, one for other bridge officers) originally intended by the second pilot but revised for the series. After all, Roddenberry wanted everyone to be an officer, so strict rank braid might be needless.
Was Vantene Sulu's first officer?
I'd argue that while the "Where No Man" scheme might have been different from the TOS one, no self-respecting organization would allow an older rank braid standard to continue in parallel use with a newer one where the same braid held a different meaning.
We don't know. Valtane as portrayed in the movie wore high rank and hovered around Sulu's chair like Spock used to do around Kirk's. (Valtane as misportrayed in VOY "Flashback" was too junior to be the XO, though.) Then again, it would make some sense for the XO to be asleep when the CO is minding the bridge, and it could have taken him or her too long to wake up and rush to the bridge for him or her to make an appearance in ST6.
Timo Saloniemi
We don't know. Valtane as portrayed in the movie wore high rank and hovered around Sulu's chair like Spock used to do around Kirk's. (Valtane as misportrayed in VOY "Flashback" was too junior to be the XO, though.) Then again, it would make some sense for the XO to be asleep when the CO is minding the bridge, and it could have taken him or her too long to wake up and rush to the bridge for him or her to make an appearance in ST6.
Timo Saloniemi
I have always thought that the potential XO in ST:TMP would be Sulu - He's a Lt Commander......experience with both the ship and crew...definitely on a 'command track'...and on the Bridge. And if Shatner's ego had not got in the way, the scene in TWOK where he would be mentioned as promoted to Captain would have made perfect sense. Plus, he would have no ego as far as the whole 'Decker is now 1st Officer, so Kirk can be Captain again' thing is concerned.
It never made sense to me that the XO would have a double job. Maybe dramatically it worked in TOS, but by TNG, with the much larger ship, it would have been impossible. Even in the TOS/TMP time period, the ship is big enough that the Captain really needs someone to run the ship while he/she runs the mission. This relationship finally happened with Picard/Riker. See TNG's "Lessons" for a good example of how this relationship works.
I would say Mr. Sulu was supposed to be Captain Decker's First Officer in TMP because when Kirk, Spock, Decker, the Ilia Probe, and Doctor McCoy leave the ship to investigate V'ger Kirk says "Mr. Sulu you have the conn.". Also, in the extented version of TMP (the 1983 version) when Kirk, Decker, and McCoy leave the bridge to go to Kirk Quarters where he rebukes Decker for counter-maninng his phaser order (while they were in the wormhole due to the ships warp engine imbalance) Sulu takes command by sitting in the Captain's chair and askes Lt. Ilia the status of the Enterprise's course.
Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\
This makes him in charge on the bridge, but not necessarily in charge of the Enterprise. There are episodes in the 1st season (Arena, for instance, Errand of Mercy, for another) where Sulu is in the center seat but Scotty is still on the Enterprise and he is putatively the ship's 2nd Officer.
Also, this would tell us nothing new if the originally intended XO was indeed left ashore. Sulu would still be the third-in-command or whatever, and the originally intended XO would simply be swapped for Decker.
If anything, Uhura is the most vocal person in charge of the bridge before Kirk breaks the news of a shift in command arrangements. But since both she and Sulu already seem to be in on that secret before Kirk makes it public, one might assume that both these veteran TOS officers were summoned specifically by Kirk and weren't even part of Decker's originally intended bridge crew...
Timo Saloniemi
If anything, Uhura is the most vocal person in charge of the bridge before Kirk breaks the news of a shift in command arrangements. But since both she and Sulu already seem to be in on that secret before Kirk makes it public, one might assume that both these veteran TOS officers were summoned specifically by Kirk and weren't even part of Decker's originally intended bridge crew...
Timo Saloniemi
No way - Sulu is shown working on his console, and Uhura is doing what a comm officer should be doing - coordinating the refit effort - so of course she is the most vocal! If they summon Kirk from God Knows Where, why WOULDN'T the real XO be there?? No XO would be 'off on vacation' in the middle of a refit. I still say its Sulu - for all the reasons stated in my post above...
Huh? That's exactly when the XO would be away, since there would be no ship for him or her to manage.
I don't see any reason for Sulu to be there, either, as the ship isn't going anywhere. Uhura could be doing wiring and calibration work, of course, but Sulu's presence would probably only be a response to the recent emergency orders of getting the ship in working order ASAP. Which jibes nicely with the idea that he would know about Decker's impending demotion, but Decker himself would not.
And I still don't see anything in the reasons you stated that would tell us anything about the arrangement before Kirk shuffled the deck. It only tells us what Sulu's status is once Decker has become the XO and Kirk the CO. If Mister X had been the original XO when Decker was CO, the same facts would obviously apply.
Timo Saloniemi
That's not true at all. I can tell you from practical Naval experience that the CO and the XO of the ship have a LOT to do with the refit. Just because the ship is in port and in pieces doesn't mean that it's not something that needs to be managed.
Since Decker was on board maybe the XO was off shift and off ship at the time. He probably got a nice message saying he was reassigned. My money is on Styles from TSFS being the XO. Explains his hate for Kirk and the Enterprise.
Regarding Decker's elusive XO, I do recall that not only Sonak, but another person was lost in the transporter accident. In the novel, it's supposed to be Vice Admiral Lori Ciana (sp?), Kirk's old boss and lover. But I don't think the second person was identified in the movie, and that's what matters. So it's possible the second person was the original XO, who had another role on the ship, and so was beaming up with Sonak. -- RR
Now that I have a few minutes....
Using both the actual movie, AND GR's novelization, lets take a look at both the timeline, and the events which apparently happened between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP, we can pretty much figure what happened.
Apparently after Enterprise gets back to Earth the following things happen:
Spock goes running off to Vulcan to study with the Masters at Gol.
McCoy quits Starfleet for a civilian practice of some kind - the unfilmed part of the script has him treating children AND tame lions and such!
An exhausted Kirk is apparently seduced into leaving regular duty, and is made an Admiral - The movie says Chief of Starfleet Operations.
Scotty gets promoted to full commander, and is put in charge of the Enterprise refit.
Chekov apparently is sent to Security school
Chapel somehow becomes an MD - apparently she was taking correspondence courses during the 5 year mission!
Obviously, when Rand left the ship early in the mission, she went to Transporter School.
Both Uhura and Sulu are specifically shown to have been promoted to Lt. Commander, but no other career changes are specified directly.
Now lets flash forward to the first few minutes of the actual movie, and what implies about both the command structure of the refitted Enterprise, and who was responsible for the personnel decisions:
After we see the Klingons get 'downladed' by V'Ger, and the chippie at Epsilon 9 giving us the little bit of exposition of V'ger heading directly for Earth, we cut immediately to Kirk arriving at HQ by shuttle from SOMEwhere - and GR says that KIRK was in Egypt, essentially on vacation. As I said, if they can make sure Kirk gets to SF HQ, certainly they can ring up that theoretical 1st Officer, and say 'Hey boobie - get yer ass back to the ship!'
Ok - next thing that happens is Kirk runs into Sonak - a Lieutenant. Kirk makes sure everyone knows that Sonak is the putitive Science Officer of the Enterprise, and Sonak thanks Kirk for Kirk's recommendation for the post. Kirk also makes the point that he will be seeing Nogura for literally five minutes, and then Sonak is to report to HIM, not Decker on the Enterprise.
Also, in the book, GR says that Kirk recommended DECKER, too!
After Kirk beams up to what is basically the foreman's shack for the Enterprise refit, and then has Scotty take him over to the ship in the pod. In the pod, great care is made to let eveyone know that while the Captain is untried, Scotty's worry is that the crew is unfamiliar with the new equipment! In the book, Roddenberry makes great pains to say how the Enterprise is carrying the 'most experienced crew to ever go into space!'
This tells me EVERYTHING i need to know as to who is 1st Officer - here is the logic -
1. You have a crew comprised mostly of Enterprise veterans
2. You have two people new to the ship in key positions - Sonak as Science Officer, and Decker as Captain.
3. Just about all of the 'secondary' cast/crew got sizable promotions/positions of responsiblilty - Chapel CMO...Chekov security chief, etc.
4. Apparently Kirk as Chief of Operations has had a hand in most all of these promotions
5. The reason Kirk takes the 'demotion' to Captain, is to provide his Enterprise veterans with a sense of comfort - as opposed to being an Admiral taking over command - plus using the 'myth' of Captain Kirk to ease the newbies.
So knowing all of this lets look at the logic of Sulu as 1st:
Kirk, when choosing an XO for the refitted ship, will want somone who is
A) On a command career track
B) Is an experienced bridge officer
and
C) Has experience with this supposedly veteran Enterprise crew
that makes Sulu a no-brainer to me
plus: Sulu would have no problem taking a 'temporary demotion' to acommodate Jim Kirk.....
2.
1.
Using both the actual movie, AND GR's novelization, lets take a look at both the timeline, and the events which apparently happened between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP, we can pretty much figure what happened.
Apparently after Enterprise gets back to Earth the following things happen:
Spock goes running off to Vulcan to study with the Masters at Gol.
McCoy quits Starfleet for a civilian practice of some kind - the unfilmed part of the script has him treating children AND tame lions and such!
An exhausted Kirk is apparently seduced into leaving regular duty, and is made an Admiral - The movie says Chief of Starfleet Operations.
Scotty gets promoted to full commander, and is put in charge of the Enterprise refit.
Chekov apparently is sent to Security school
Chapel somehow becomes an MD - apparently she was taking correspondence courses during the 5 year mission!
Obviously, when Rand left the ship early in the mission, she went to Transporter School.
Both Uhura and Sulu are specifically shown to have been promoted to Lt. Commander, but no other career changes are specified directly.
Now lets flash forward to the first few minutes of the actual movie, and what implies about both the command structure of the refitted Enterprise, and who was responsible for the personnel decisions:
After we see the Klingons get 'downladed' by V'Ger, and the chippie at Epsilon 9 giving us the little bit of exposition of V'ger heading directly for Earth, we cut immediately to Kirk arriving at HQ by shuttle from SOMEwhere - and GR says that KIRK was in Egypt, essentially on vacation. As I said, if they can make sure Kirk gets to SF HQ, certainly they can ring up that theoretical 1st Officer, and say 'Hey boobie - get yer ass back to the ship!'
Ok - next thing that happens is Kirk runs into Sonak - a Lieutenant. Kirk makes sure everyone knows that Sonak is the putitive Science Officer of the Enterprise, and Sonak thanks Kirk for Kirk's recommendation for the post. Kirk also makes the point that he will be seeing Nogura for literally five minutes, and then Sonak is to report to HIM, not Decker on the Enterprise.
Also, in the book, GR says that Kirk recommended DECKER, too!
After Kirk beams up to what is basically the foreman's shack for the Enterprise refit, and then has Scotty take him over to the ship in the pod. In the pod, great care is made to let eveyone know that while the Captain is untried, Scotty's worry is that the crew is unfamiliar with the new equipment! In the book, Roddenberry makes great pains to say how the Enterprise is carrying the 'most experienced crew to ever go into space!'
This tells me EVERYTHING i need to know as to who is 1st Officer - here is the logic -
1. You have a crew comprised mostly of Enterprise veterans
2. You have two people new to the ship in key positions - Sonak as Science Officer, and Decker as Captain.
3. Just about all of the 'secondary' cast/crew got sizable promotions/positions of responsiblilty - Chapel CMO...Chekov security chief, etc.
4. Apparently Kirk as Chief of Operations has had a hand in most all of these promotions
5. The reason Kirk takes the 'demotion' to Captain, is to provide his Enterprise veterans with a sense of comfort - as opposed to being an Admiral taking over command - plus using the 'myth' of Captain Kirk to ease the newbies.
So knowing all of this lets look at the logic of Sulu as 1st:
Kirk, when choosing an XO for the refitted ship, will want somone who is
A) On a command career track
B) Is an experienced bridge officer
and
C) Has experience with this supposedly veteran Enterprise crew
that makes Sulu a no-brainer to me
plus: Sulu would have no problem taking a 'temporary demotion' to acommodate Jim Kirk.....
2.
1.
^EnsignHarper,
I can buy your reasoning. One little correction -- you said Sonak's rank was lieutenant, but Kirk specifically calls him Commander Sonak. He's wearing the two solid braids that indicate a full commander in TOS Starfleet, but much like how Spock had the lower rank of lt. cmdr. but a full cmdr.'s braids, in the credits he's listed as Lt. Cmdr. Sonak. Yikes!
Red Ranger
I can buy your reasoning. One little correction -- you said Sonak's rank was lieutenant, but Kirk specifically calls him Commander Sonak. He's wearing the two solid braids that indicate a full commander in TOS Starfleet, but much like how Spock had the lower rank of lt. cmdr. but a full cmdr.'s braids, in the credits he's listed as Lt. Cmdr. Sonak. Yikes!
Red Ranger
On a pretty fundamental level, it shouldn't be that our TOS heroes are stuck on a one-track career that keeps them married to a single starship - a ship that isn't going anywhere, even!
In contrast, it makes perfect sense that Kirk would want to round up his old friends and admirers for a special mission.
Those two put together allow us to interpret the TMP crew in a number of ways, my favorite being that very, very few of the TOS regulars were going to be in Decker's crew. Uhura and Sulu might have been longterm coworkers of the doomed Captain, and Scotty was of course in charge of the refit and thus probably a top contender for being the ship's Chief Engineer for the first few missions as well. But nothing certain is established about the timeline by which Sulu or Uhura came aboard (the now somewhat outdated novelization or parallel novel notwithstanding), and it could be that both were only hastily summoned and were not in Decker's original crew at all.
Timo Saloniemi
In contrast, it makes perfect sense that Kirk would want to round up his old friends and admirers for a special mission.
Those two put together allow us to interpret the TMP crew in a number of ways, my favorite being that very, very few of the TOS regulars were going to be in Decker's crew. Uhura and Sulu might have been longterm coworkers of the doomed Captain, and Scotty was of course in charge of the refit and thus probably a top contender for being the ship's Chief Engineer for the first few missions as well. But nothing certain is established about the timeline by which Sulu or Uhura came aboard (the now somewhat outdated novelization or parallel novel notwithstanding), and it could be that both were only hastily summoned and were not in Decker's original crew at all.
Timo Saloniemi
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