Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)

[theenglish]

And its silly for a person who uses an avatar of Dr WHO to have such a flawed knowledge of how all versions of time travel works.

There is Predestination Paradox, like in Time's Arrow... Where you were supposed to go back and do what you did.

There is Causality interference which happened in City on the edge of forever and indeed needed intervention to keep history going on the "correct" path in the universe. (See the show Voyagers, Quantum Leap, Time Tunnel)

Then there is Alternate Timelines or Parrallel Universe theory. None of these being used excludes the other from being used in any universe and I think that's where the problem people have wrapping their heads around all this. Each can happen in any universe as long as the temporal conditions are met.

*Sigh*...tsk tsk tsk Qonos...If you were smart enough to have read what Orci had said then you'd know what everyone has been really discussing all this time. Orci says that the QM Theory is replacing all time travel Theories that came before because it's the most scientifically accurate. He said that in each time travel instance a new and alternate timeline is created. That is the debate here if you'd like to keep up with the rest of us.

From what I read and I can read and comprehend he said Old trek isn't going away and that this is an alternate reality he never said any of the other stories were invalidated. Atleast that's the gist I got, of course I'm not one of these fans who second guesses everything because they've been out Raping Childhoods. We're following a different version of Kirk, and Spock because we've switched tracks. So please don't talk down to me. I've got a pretty good grasp on Time Travel and PUT as Time Travel stories are some things I really get into. And what most of the people in this debate are doing are taking what he said and letting it fit there argument. He never said it was replacing all other time travel theories. He said that this is the one they've chosen to use for this movie... Maybe you need to keep up with me, Sweetcheeks.

And if you had read the point of my post instead of being sarcastic and insulting, you would have realised that the point I am making is that this QM theory is silly in that it is obviously an attempt to explain away continuity irregularities in the story that the current production team couldn't be bothered to fix.

Orci's comments are a straw man to get the fan base talking about something else other than the fact that this movie ignores previously established Trek history for the sake of a quick buck.

And don't go around insulting people just for the sake of doing so, please.

 

[Qonos]

Ah but it's totally fine to call the writer silly. Yes I see as long as the insults aren't directed at oneself we can fling them willy-nilly. That's not cricket now is it.

 

[Devon]

Orci's comments are a straw man to get the fan base talking about something else other than the fact that this movie ignores previously established Trek history for the sake of a quick buck.

No.

 

[number6]

Orci's comments are a straw man to get the fan base talking about something else other than the fact that this movie ignores previously established Trek history for the sake of a quick buck.

No.

Everything I've read suggests a genuine desire to make a good film. Period.

It is the militant sect of the fan base that is getting all bent out of shape about the color of Kirks eyes, and the shape of the nacelles. I think that's just wasted energy placed on cynicism and there is no pleasing those folk no matter what.

If Paramount truly simply wanted a quick buck, they would repackage a couple of episodes from all the series and call it a "fan collective" or something like that...oh wait.

 

[Captain X]

I find it amusing what some people tell themselves about anyone who has a differing opinion from them.

 

[Captain Robert April]

For the record, the revelation that this whole thing is going to be some alternate timeline story has prompted me to pretty much call off my jihad about this movie, at least from the position of its trying to overwrite the estabished continuity.

I'm still not particularly interested in it, though, because a) it looks stupid, and b) I have no interest in following an ongoing alternate timeline.

Now, as to how the whole time travel thing shakes out, here's how I see it going at this point:

Nero attempts to go back in time in order to kill Kirk and send the Federation into the crapper. Problem is, he doesn't change the timeline, he creates an alternate timeline, assuming he didn't wind up in an alternate timeline in the first place (thus accounting for the design discrepencies in the Kelvin). No real concern to Nero, though, because he still gets to set himself up as the new emporer, or whatever.

Now, from Nero's perspective, or at least someone tagging along with Nero who can tell the difference, it's an alternate timeline. But to those native to that timeline, it's a temporal incursion, thus prompting the old Spock from that timeline to go back in time and repair the damage.

All of this takes place completely independent of the mainline Trek continuity, where all they know is some Romulan hothead named Nero started swearing vengeance against Kirk and the Federation, then completely disappeared one day, and, in the words of the Dixie Chicks, became a missing person who nobody missed at all.

Of course, this also puts the lie to why they couldn't include Shatner, since we are, by their own admission, dealing with an alternate timeline, so there's nothing to say that Kirk wouldn't still be alive in that alternate timeline, even if that meant Old Spock making a brief stop to pick up Old Kirk on the way back to stopping Nero and setting things right, from the perspective of that timeline.

And, of course, with this being an alternate timeline, when all is set right, there's no obligation to making anything look like TOS whatsoever.

Make sense?

 

[number6]

Make sense?

Of course not.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Which just goes to show why time travel should be put on a twenty year moratorium in Star Trek. It's become a bloody crutch.

 

[number6]

Which just goes to show why time travel should be put on a twenty year moratorium in Star Trek. It's become a bloody crutch.

I like eggs.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Which just goes to show why time travel should be put on a twenty year moratorium in Star Trek. It's become a bloody crutch.

Agreed. And I can think of a few other shows that went to that well a few times too many (Stargate, I'm lookin' at YOU!)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Orci's comments are a straw man to get the fan base talking about something else other than the fact that this movie ignores previously established Trek history for the sake of a quick buck.

Nonsense, since very few among the "fan base" were saying that before.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Orci's comments are a straw man to get the fan base talking about something else other than the fact that this movie ignores previously established Trek history for the sake of a quick buck.

Let me re-word your quote a bit...

"...this movie ignores previously established Trek history, and will hopefully be an entertaining film that is commecially successful"

My point is this: so what if it ignores previously established Trek history? Does every trek film need to continue the 42-year old story? Why not start fresh using the established & familiar characters and the established & familiar Star Trek philiosophy of story-telling?

In my book, if the characters are recognizable as the familiar TOS characters, and the story follows in the TOS tradition, then it's what I would label as the "Star Trek" brand, even if it did not continue (or add to) the story that we all consider the "canon".

Was the best thing about Star Trek really the fact that it essentially told one continuous story? I personally don't think so. The best thing about Star Trek was the story that each episode told. I enjoyed each episode on its own merits, and really didn't care that much how they related to one another (especially since that was a very rare occurance until midway through TNG's run.)

 

[Falcor5]

Which just goes to show why time travel should be put on a twenty year moratorium in Star Trek. It's become a bloody crutch.

I agree completely. I really wish they where able to come up with a story that did not use time travel yet again.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Which just goes to show why time travel should be put on a twenty year moratorium in Star Trek. It's become a bloody crutch.

I agree completely. I really wish they where able to come up with a story that did not use time travel yet again.

Different producers, likely different results. Or should all Trek producers be forbidden from ever using time travel or any scifi notion just because those before them have? That's what you seem to be asking and its not fair to the creative minds involved to expect them to pay for previous producers perceived failings.

Sharr

 

[number6]

Which just goes to show why time travel should be put on a twenty year moratorium in Star Trek. It's become a bloody crutch.

I agree completely. I really wish they where able to come up with a story that did not use time travel yet again.

Different producers, likely different results. Or should all Trek producers be forbidden from ever using time travel or any scifi notion just because those before them have? That's what you seem to be asking and its not fair to the creative minds involved to expect them to pay for previous producers perceived failings.

Sharr

I think a lot of these "fans" are just bitter about not being asked to consult on this film.

 

[Falcor5]

I agree completely. I really wish they where able to come up with a story that did not use time travel yet again.

Different producers, likely different results. Or should all Trek producers be forbidden from ever using time travel or any scifi notion just because those before them have? That's what you seem to be asking and its not fair to the creative minds involved to expect them to pay for previous producers perceived failings.

Sharr

I think a lot of these "fans" are just bitter about not being asked to consult on this film.

So because some of us are sick of time travel in Trek movies we are not real fans??

 

[number6]

Different producers, likely different results. Or should all Trek producers be forbidden from ever using time travel or any scifi notion just because those before them have? That's what you seem to be asking and its not fair to the creative minds involved to expect them to pay for previous producers perceived failings.

Sharr

I think a lot of these "fans" are just bitter about not being asked to consult on this film.

So because some of us are sick of time travel in Trek movies we are not real fans??

That is exactly what I'm saying.

 

[datagal]

For the record, the revelation that this whole thing is going to be some alternate timeline story has prompted me to pretty much call off my jihad about this movie, at least from the position of its trying to overwrite the estabished continuity.

I'm still not particularly interested in it, though, because a) it looks stupid, and b) I have no interest in following an ongoing alternate timeline.

Now, as to how the whole time travel thing shakes out, here's how I see it going at this point:

Nero attempts to go back in time in order to kill Kirk and send the Federation into the crapper. Problem is, he doesn't change the timeline, he creates an alternate timeline, assuming he didn't wind up in an alternate timeline in the first place (thus accounting for the design discrepencies in the Kelvin). No real concern to Nero, though, because he still gets to set himself up as the new emporer, or whatever.

Now, from Nero's perspective, or at least someone tagging along with Nero who can tell the difference, it's an alternate timeline. But to those native to that timeline, it's a temporal incursion, thus prompting the old Spock from that timeline to go back in time and repair the damage.

All of this takes place completely independent of the mainline Trek continuity, where all they know is some Romulan hothead named Nero started swearing vengeance against Kirk and the Federation, then completely disappeared one day, and, in the words of the Dixie Chicks, became a missing person who nobody missed at all.

Of course, this also puts the lie to why they couldn't include Shatner, since we are, by their own admission, dealing with an alternate timeline, so there's nothing to say that Kirk wouldn't still be alive in that alternate timeline, even if that meant Old Spock making a brief stop to pick up Old Kirk on the way back to stopping Nero and setting things right, from the perspective of that timeline.

And, of course, with this being an alternate timeline, when all is set right, there's no obligation to making anything look like TOS whatsoever.

Make sense?

Uh...... no.

Can we just wait until the movie actually open in May? Please.

 

[trekkerguy]

I find it amusing what some people tell themselves about anyone who has a differing opinion from them.

So true...

 

[number6]

For the record, the revelation that this whole thing is going to be some alternate timeline story has prompted me to pretty much call off my jihad about this movie, at least from the position of its trying to overwrite the estabished continuity.

I'm still not particularly interested in it, though, because a) it looks stupid, and b) I have no interest in following an ongoing alternate timeline.

Now, as to how the whole time travel thing shakes out, here's how I see it going at this point:

Nero attempts to go back in time in order to kill Kirk and send the Federation into the crapper. Problem is, he doesn't change the timeline, he creates an alternate timeline, assuming he didn't wind up in an alternate timeline in the first place (thus accounting for the design discrepencies in the Kelvin). No real concern to Nero, though, because he still gets to set himself up as the new emporer, or whatever.

Now, from Nero's perspective, or at least someone tagging along with Nero who can tell the difference, it's an alternate timeline. But to those native to that timeline, it's a temporal incursion, thus prompting the old Spock from that timeline to go back in time and repair the damage.

All of this takes place completely independent of the mainline Trek continuity, where all they know is some Romulan hothead named Nero started swearing vengeance against Kirk and the Federation, then completely disappeared one day, and, in the words of the Dixie Chicks, became a missing person who nobody missed at all.

Of course, this also puts the lie to why they couldn't include Shatner, since we are, by their own admission, dealing with an alternate timeline, so there's nothing to say that Kirk wouldn't still be alive in that alternate timeline, even if that meant Old Spock making a brief stop to pick up Old Kirk on the way back to stopping Nero and setting things right, from the perspective of that timeline.

And, of course, with this being an alternate timeline, when all is set right, there's no obligation to making anything look like TOS whatsoever.

Make sense?

Uh...... no.

Can we just wait until the movie actually open in May? Please.

QFT
Out of the mouth of the Baby Jesus!!