Do you not know what the purpose of a spoiler tag is for? Have the decency to respect the original post's desire to put something in a spoiler tag rather than take it upon yourself to simply expose it in the very next post.
Orci on Start Trek, timelines, canon and everything (SPOILERS)
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Yes, it's to hide spoilers, do you know what a spoiler is? I'll give you a hint, it's not something fans want to see in the movie.
If it's not a spoiler I'll expose it, why shouldn't I? I removed the spoilerish part that talked about events that actually happen in the movie, so stop bitching.Have the decency to respect the original post's desire to put something in a spoiler tag rather than take it upon yourself to simply expose it in the very next post.
Wrong.Yes, it's to hide spoilers, do you know what a spoiler is? I'll give you a hint, it's not something fans want to see in the movie.
If it's not a spoiler I'll expose it, why shouldn't I? I removed the spoilerish part that talked about events that actually happen in the movie, so stop bitching.Have the decency to respect the original post's desire to put something in a spoiler tag rather than take it upon yourself to simply expose it in the very next post.
If it's put in spoiler tags, then you don't quote it openly in a subsequent post. Whether you believe the information constitutes a spoiler or not is irrelevant, unless you happen to be running the forum in which it is posted. As such does not appear to be the case, it isn't your call, so don't do it.
Thank you.Wrong.Yes, it's to hide spoilers, do you know what a spoiler is? I'll give you a hint, it's not something fans want to see in the movie.
If it's not a spoiler I'll expose it, why shouldn't I? I removed the spoilerish part that talked about events that actually happen in the movie, so stop bitching.Have the decency to respect the original post's desire to put something in a spoiler tag rather than take it upon yourself to simply expose it in the very next post.
If it's put in spoiler tags, then you don't quote it openly in a subsequent post. Whether you believe the information constitutes a spoiler or not is irrelevant, unless you happen to be running the forum in which it is posted. As such does not appear to be the case, it isn't your call, so don't do it.
Exactly. Just call it a reboot and be done with it already.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
That is the logic of it, isn't it? Not too many people seem to notice this.
Good analysis generally.
No, it depicted the original timeline being the timeline where the Klingons are at peace with the Federation, and time travel event of the Enterprise-C coming to the future at a critical moment CHANGING that timeline into a timeline where the Federation and Klingons are at war with one another. They then send the Enterprise-C back in time to COMPLETE what it originally was going to do, which CHANGED the timeline BACK to its original peaceful self.
It however, did NOT create a parallel universe.
That's why your quarters, and corridors are brightly lit. You do not shine a bright light in your eyes that hurts your eyes, and blinds you as you try to target an attacking ship... and oops, your blown to bits.
No, in ONE timeline, the altered one, the Enterprise-C is MISSING, it seemingly disappeared; which caused a Klingon outpost to be destroyed, and there be NO witnesses to the Enterprise-C attempting to help the Klingon outpost. Thus the Klingons accusations and outrage that the dishonorable Federation went back on their word and did not help, which eventually led to war.
In the original timeline, the Enterprise-C is DESTROYED, VISIBLY and VERY PUBLICLY. The Klingons witnessed their sacrifice, buying enough time for the outpost to either be saved or some Klingons to flee, or whatever, but the information on the actions of the Enterprise-C reached the Klingons. A Federation ship took on bad odds and sacrificed themselves to help the Klingons; showing the Federation's honor, and thus strengthening their ties.
These are two different timelines, that existed in the same quantum reality, created by time travel.
Guinan could even sense it: the time line, was WRONG, it had CHANGED, and it was best to put it back the way it should have been.
Whether or not sending Yar back through time along with the Enterprise-C created another third time line, that only produced any minor changes in the Romulan Star Empire until Sela makes herself known, is debatable.
At this point it really gets into the nitty gritty of causality, and according to a Voyager episode the cause of something, can indeed lie in the future of the effect. As such, there might never have been a timeline where a future Yar did not arrive in the past with the Enterprise-C.
No, actually. What a creator says doesn't matter. Only what happens in the stories told is what matters.
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Would we need a separate thread to discuss our theories on how the "Memory Alpha" timeline could be restored (or how QUANTUM THEORY gently nudges the universe in that direction)?
That is the logic of it, isn't it? Not too many people seem to notice this.
Good analysis generally.
No, it depicted the original timeline being the timeline where the Klingons are at peace with the Federation, and time travel event of the Enterprise-C coming to the future at a critical moment CHANGING that timeline into a timeline where the Federation and Klingons are at war with one another. They then send the Enterprise-C back in time to COMPLETE what it originally was going to do, which CHANGED the timeline BACK to its original peaceful self.
It however, did NOT create a parallel universe.
That's why your quarters, and corridors are brightly lit. You do not shine a bright light in your eyes that hurts your eyes, and blinds you as you try to target an attacking ship... and oops, your blown to bits.
No, in ONE timeline, the altered one, the Enterprise-C is MISSING, it seemingly disappeared; which caused a Klingon outpost to be destroyed, and there be NO witnesses to the Enterprise-C attempting to help the Klingon outpost. Thus the Klingons accusations and outrage that the dishonorable Federation went back on their word and did not help, which eventually led to war.
In the original timeline, the Enterprise-C is DESTROYED, VISIBLY and VERY PUBLICLY. The Klingons witnessed their sacrifice, buying enough time for the outpost to either be saved or some Klingons to flee, or whatever, but the information on the actions of the Enterprise-C reached the Klingons. A Federation ship took on bad odds and sacrificed themselves to help the Klingons; showing the Federation's honor, and thus strengthening their ties.
These are two different timelines, that existed in the same quantum reality, created by time travel.
Guinan could even sense it: the time line, was WRONG, it had CHANGED, and it was best to put it back the way it should have been.
Whether or not sending Yar back through time along with the Enterprise-C created another third time line, that only produced any minor changes in the Romulan Star Empire until Sela makes herself known, is debatable.
At this point it really gets into the nitty gritty of causality, and according to a Voyager episode the cause of something, can indeed lie in the future of the effect. As such, there might never have been a timeline where a future Yar did not arrive in the past with the Enterprise-C.
No, actually. What a creator says doesn't matter. Only what happens in the stories told is what matters.
Yes... this is how I see the event's of "Yesterday's Enterprise" unfolding also.
The War Tme Line created by the E-C, starts the moment it goes through the Rift and Doesn't get Destroyed.
It Ends, when the E-C goes back and Does get destroyed, a period of about 20 years.
Thus, the WAR Time Line is not really an Alterrnate Time Line to the Original, it's actually a Bump or Loop attached to the Original Time Line.
All the event's seen, lead back to the opening of the Rift by the Romulan's Multiple Torpedo's fired at the Enterprise-C.
In one instance she dissapears and in the other she is captured/destroyed but both are part of the Original Time Line.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
I think original "quantum reality" or "universe" is better term. That way you have a clear difference between a time line (that can change, be altered, be removed, have bumps, (and can indeed be changed/become alternate) without having to switch to another universe), and an entirely different (quantum) reality / universe / dimension which also exists vis-a-vis Parallels. The latter even allowing for places with entirely different laws of physics.
Of course, what Orci is forgetting here in his lame attempt to excuse away bad research/understanding of the Trek universe when creating this film is that his "time travel theory" then negates forty years worth of Time Travel stories within the universe.
When McCoy travels through the Guardian nothing should have changed in the timeline. There should never have been any motivation to send the Ent-C back to the past. etc. etc.
This is a silly thing said by the new creative team as a post hoc explanation of why they couldn't have been bothered to do proper research three years ago.
When McCoy travels through the Guardian nothing should have changed in the timeline. There should never have been any motivation to send the Ent-C back to the past. etc. etc.
This is a silly thing said by the new creative team as a post hoc explanation of why they couldn't have been bothered to do proper research three years ago.
Just a quick thought:
I had posted in another thread about what seems to be the lack of decal striping, and the reference to the "United Federation of Planets" on the Enterprise (and Kelvin).
Could it be that Nero has corrupted the time line to the point where the Federation was never formed (though a limited earth based Starfleet does exist), thereby would no be much of threat (or challenge) to the Romulans.
I had posted in another thread about what seems to be the lack of decal striping, and the reference to the "United Federation of Planets" on the Enterprise (and Kelvin).
Could it be that Nero has corrupted the time line to the point where the Federation was never formed (though a limited earth based Starfleet does exist), thereby would no be much of threat (or challenge) to the Romulans.
According to the spoliers that are out there Nero, destroys a good portion of the frontline klingon and federation fleets and does considerable damage to Vulcan. A future where Kirk is in command of the Enterprise because everybody else is dead, Vulcan is permanently evacuated, and the Romulans are free to run wild just seems like Nero won to me. Add in a rag tag fleet and romulan sleeper agents in the fleet and you'll have star trek galactica.
And its silly for a person who uses an avatar of Dr WHO to have such a flawed knowledge of how all versions of time travel works.
There is Predestination Paradox, like in Time's Arrow... Where you were supposed to go back and do what you did.
There is Causality interference which happened in City on the edge of forever and indeed needed intervention to keep history going on the "correct" path in the universe. (See the show Voyagers, Quantum Leap, Time Tunnel)
Then there is Alternate Timelines or Parrallel Universe theory. None of these being used excludes the other from being used in any universe and I think that's where the problem people have wrapping their heads around all this. Each can happen in any universe as long as the temporal conditions are met.
*Sigh*...tsk tsk tsk Qonos...If you were smart enough to have read what Orci had said then you'd know what everyone has been really discussing all this time. Orci says that the QM Theory is replacing all time travel Theories that came before because it's the most scientifically accurate. He said that in each time travel instance a new and alternate timeline is created. That is the debate here if you'd like to keep up with the rest of us.
From what I read and I can read and comprehend he said Old trek isn't going away and that this is an alternate reality he never said any of the other stories were invalidated. Atleast that's the gist I got, of course I'm not one of these fans who second guesses everything because they've been out Raping Childhoods. We're following a different version of Kirk, and Spock because we've switched tracks. So please don't talk down to me. I've got a pretty good grasp on Time Travel and PUT as Time Travel stories are some things I really get into. And what most of the people in this debate are doing are taking what he said and letting it fit there argument. He never said it was replacing all other time travel theories. He said that this is the one they've chosen to use for this movie... Maybe you need to keep up with me, Sweetcheeks.
number6
Vice Admiral
Maybe his cheeks really are sweet.
It's really quite simple...
...Star Trek has told us there is a difference between simple time travel (e.g. TOS: COTEOF) and alternate timelines/parallel universes (e.g. TNG: Parallels).
Why is there a difference?
Because Star Trek said there is.
Can time travel create alternate timelines/parallel universes?
Yes, because ST:XI reportedly says it can.
Who cares about Orci's post-hoc explantion, as long as the plot of the film makes sense when I see it. This is like caring about Roddenberry's post-hoc "time dilation" explanation for the inconsistencies in TOS stardates (which by the way made no sense, even to people who understand time dilation...the general theory of time dilation makes sense, but not Roddenberry's application of the theory)
...Star Trek has told us there is a difference between simple time travel (e.g. TOS: COTEOF) and alternate timelines/parallel universes (e.g. TNG: Parallels).
Why is there a difference?
Because Star Trek said there is.
Can time travel create alternate timelines/parallel universes?
Yes, because ST:XI reportedly says it can.
Who cares about Orci's post-hoc explantion, as long as the plot of the film makes sense when I see it. This is like caring about Roddenberry's post-hoc "time dilation" explanation for the inconsistencies in TOS stardates (which by the way made no sense, even to people who understand time dilation...the general theory of time dilation makes sense, but not Roddenberry's application of the theory)
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Works for me.
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