Spoilers Destiny: Lost Souls by David Mack Review Thread

[Dayton Ward]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

OK, OK. While the Breen and Eav'oq jokes are cute and funny, let's try to keep this one on topic and about Destiny: Lost Souls. I'm sure the topic can still be discussed and manage to slip in some of those.

Let's just avoid spamming the thread with them.

Thanks.

Can we spend three days talking about who makes the best Jimmy Olsen instead?

 

[Marie1]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I believe more and more of Curzon is sort of seeping into her personality and she's become someone who's going to be an unconventional captain and will ignore Starfleet regs and protocol when she feels someone just needs an old-fashioned smack in the head...

Ahhh!!! Maybe thats it!! You're on to something I think... she's been quoting him lately in DS9... and that may explain her decision in GoN to have that formal command thing, the one that Bowers wanted as a trade off...

Interesting...

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

She may know about war from the memories of the other hosts- that, to me, doesn't necessarily make her a better captain- I don't think her other hosts were, and she wasn't slated to be joined. One of her hosts was a serial killer for that matter... and I'd personally resent a simple "get over it" if I got 3 people killed. Kedair is right, Dax has a terrible bedside manner. May... maybe I wouldn't have minded what was said if it was a friend of Kedairs... that wouldn't be so bad. I doubt this is over...

She may have won, but thats not something she's going to be able to pull off very often, Captain or no... or I venture to say its not ideal...

I am also sure that this isn`t over. It was just a start, giving Kedair a chance to look at what happened from a different perspective and giving her a crutch so that she could function during the crisis.

Now that the threat is over, I agree that Kedair needs proper treatment. Dealing with a trauma takes a lot of time and she will need support.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Maybe in the future someone catches Section 31 so they can't attempt genocide anymore...

They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)

I hope we actually get to see this in a future novel.

This, and the public trial, treason conviction, and possible execution of every single member of Section 31 that the Federation can get its hands on.

If you look at it from the POV of an attacked race, it's humanity's fault for the survivors not letting themselves die. They went back and sought out the Caeliar's help to survive, had they just allowed themselves to die or killed themselves, no Borg.

There are a lot of races that will have this viewpoint, I feel. The Klingons, for example. A Klingon would never be so weak as to allow themselves to even *be* taken prisoner, let alone used in that way.

The Borg have been vanquished.

Well, unless their mirror universe counterparts ever happen to crossover to this universe

AAAA! Hell no! The whole fucking POINT of this massive series was to totally, irrevocably and permanently END the Borg. If the MU Borg pop up, that will be a galaxy-sized middle finger to the fans.

I don't know what will ultimately happen to the MU Borg. I doubt that we will ever find out. Perhaps "The Worst Of Both Worlds" will prove to be definitive? We can only hope.

 

[Sci]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Maybe in the future someone catches Section 31 so they can't attempt genocide anymore...

They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)

I hope we actually get to see this in a future novel.

This, and the public trial, treason conviction, and possible execution of every single member of Section 31 that the Federation can get its hands on.

I think it's safe to say that the United Federation of Planets does not engage in capital punishment anymore, especially since they're not so much enemies with the Talosians anymore.

The other thing to keep in mind is that exactly what constitutes membership in Section 31 is a bit, well, murky. I don't think they keep ledgers or tell people what the secret handshake is or hand out membership cards. Julian Bashir, for instance, is apparently considered to be a member of Section 31 by them, and has even undertaken missions upon being assigned one from Thirty-One; does that make him a member who deserves to be arrested and tried for treason? On the other hand, he's also a part of the Kirk cabal of anti-Thirty-One officers.

Similarly, what about, say, Admiral Ross? He's apparently a member, he's undertaken operations on their behalf, he's collaborated with them. He even

Spoiler: A Time to Heal

facilitated the assassination of Federation President Min Zife for them.

But by the same token, to hear him talk about it in his head, he thought of himself as trying to hold them back and control them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I think it's safe to say that the United Federation of Planets does not engage in capital punishment anymore

Maybe they might want to reconsider this. Wouldn't it be much too dangerous to leave any Section 31 member alive?

Julian Bashir, for instance, is apparently considered to be a member of Section 31 by them, and has even undertaken missions upon being assigned one from Thirty-One; does that make him a member who deserves to be arrested and tried for treason? On the other hand, he's also a part of the Kirk cabal of anti-Thirty-One officers.

I don't count Bashir as a member, and never did. He was recruited against his will, and obviously did not agree with their ultimate goals. And as you say, he was part of the Kirk Cabal working against them. That leaves Bashir off the hook, as far as I'm concerned.

Similarly, what about, say, Admiral Ross? He's apparently a member, he's undertaken operations on their behalf, he's collaborated with them. He even

Spoiler: A Time to Heal

facilitated the assassination of Federation President Min Zife for them.

But by the same token, to hear him talk about it in his head, he thought of himself as trying to hold them back and control them.

I'm sure he did. But that doesn't absolve him of blame. Unlike Bashir, I consider Ross a full member of Section 31 who should be held accountable for their crimes. It's just a pity that Sloan is already dead and unable to face a public trial and punishment.

 

[Sci]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I think it's safe to say that the United Federation of Planets does not engage in capital punishment anymore

Maybe they might want to reconsider this. Wouldn't it be much too dangerous to leave any Section 31 member alive?

That's a dangerous road to tread down. I mean, seriously, if we're going to violate one of the Federation's basic principles -- the right of sentient entities to live -- because we think that the ends of serving justice and protecting the Federation justify the means (execution) -- then, really, how are we any different from Section 31?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I think it's safe to say that the United Federation of Planets does not engage in capital punishment anymore

Maybe they might want to reconsider this. Wouldn't it be much too dangerous to leave any Section 31 member alive?

That's a dangerous road to tread down. I mean, seriously, if we're going to violate one of the Federation's basic principles -- the right of sentient entities to live -- because we think that the ends of serving justice and protecting the Federation justify the means (execution) -- then, really, how are we any different from Section 31?

I see your point. So what would you suggest the Federation do with them?

 

[Sci]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Maybe they might want to reconsider this. Wouldn't it be much too dangerous to leave any Section 31 member alive?

That's a dangerous road to tread down. I mean, seriously, if we're going to violate one of the Federation's basic principles -- the right of sentient entities to live -- because we think that the ends of serving justice and protecting the Federation justify the means (execution) -- then, really, how are we any different from Section 31?

I see your point. So what would you suggest the Federation do with them?

I'd say that locking them up in a high-security prison for a term lasting however long a qualified judiciary judges to be proportional to the severity of the crimes committed by that individual sounds good to me.

 

[Stevil2001]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

That's crazy talk! What kind of government would practice justice like that?

 

[JD]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

That's a dangerous road to tread down. I mean, seriously, if we're going to violate one of the Federation's basic principles -- the right of sentient entities to live -- because we think that the ends of serving justice and protecting the Federation justify the means (execution) -- then, really, how are we any different from Section 31?

I see your point. So what would you suggest the Federation do with them?

I'd say that locking them up in a high-security prison for a term lasting however long a qualified judiciary judges to be proportional to the severity of the crimes committed by that individual sounds good to me.

I'm thinking this would pretty much have to be life for some of the highest ranking members. I'm mainly talking about the people who would have actually descided to try to wipe out the entire Changeling race, and murder the Federation President.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Maybe in the future someone catches Section 31 so they can't attempt genocide anymore...

They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)

That was strange and unexpected... I'd heard a bit about what TGTMD was about... but this I didn't see coming... (I read up just now from Memory Alpha or something). I love that Jake has a cat named Odo!

The Borg have been vanquished.

Well, unless their mirror universe counterparts ever happen to crossover to this universe

AAAA! Hell no! The whole fucking POINT of this massive series was to totally, irrevocably and permanently END the Borg. If the MU Borg pop up, that will be a galaxy-sized middle finger to the fans.

I don't know what will ultimately happen to the MU Borg. I doubt that we will ever find out. Perhaps "The Worst Of Both Worlds" will prove to be definitive? We can only hope.

Well, in theory an MU exists for every choice we make for the choice we didn't- so there are probably lots of MU borg... I don't think the fans will find it offensive- they'll have new respect and pity for the Borg, maybe be more sympathetic, try to help them, won't feel so overwhelmed... or maybe blow them up, who knows... I wouldn't be offended- kinda hard to shut those doors completely...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Well, in theory an MU exists for every choice we make for the choice we didn't- so there are probably lots of MU borg... I don't think the fans will find it offensive- they'll have new respect and pity for the Borg, maybe be more sympathetic, try to help them, won't feel so overwhelmed... or maybe blow them up, who knows... I wouldn't be offended- kinda hard to shut those doors completely...

It's just that...after all this attention to the final, irrevocable end of the Borg, I would hate to have them brought back again in the MU. The Borg should end there too. Although, given the general state of affairs in that universe, *their* Borg will probably be dealt with more ruthlessly than these Borg have been.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

^ True, but think of all the innocent people enslaved by the Borg who have died as "enemies." Its easy to forget that nice people with loved ones are also Borg- so maybe they can be dealt with less ruthlessly by the MU due to the revelations of the Destiny story...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Its easy to forget that nice people with loved ones are also Borg- so maybe they can be dealt with less ruthlessly by the MU due to the revelations of the Destiny story...

I don't see the connection. Destiny dealt only with the 'real' universe, it had no MU connections whatsoever. No one in the MU is, or could be, aware of anything that happened in Destiny. If there is any relationship at all between the two universes' Borg, we are not aware of it yet.

My concern is simply regarding the Borg as fictional characters (not how actual characters would deal with them). David Mack went to a lot of trouble to write this - to finally, unambiguously, END the Borg. If the MU Borg suddenly show up later on, doesn't that cheapen Destiny just a little bit?

 

[Sci]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Maybe in the future someone catches Section 31 so they can't attempt genocide anymore...

They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)

That was strange and unexpected... I'd heard a bit about what TGTMD was about... but this I didn't see coming...

You probably should have seen it coming. 2001's Section 31 mini-series featured each of the then-three canonical captains sans Sisko -- Kirk in 2268, Picard in 2373, and Janeway in 2374 -- becoming aware of the existence of Section 31 and vowing to find a way to bring them to justice. The foreshadowing seemed obvious to me at the time.

And, sure enough, The Good That Men Do confirms that Section 31 is eventually uncovered and brought to justice. The only thing remaining to be told is the story of how they were brought to justice.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Its easy to forget that nice people with loved ones are also Borg- so maybe they can be dealt with less ruthlessly by the MU due to the revelations of the Destiny story...

I don't see the connection. Destiny dealt only with the 'real' universe, it had no MU connections whatsoever. No one in the MU is, or could be, aware of anything that happened in Destiny. If there is any relationship at all between the two universes' Borg, we are not aware of it yet.

My concern is simply regarding the Borg as fictional characters (not how actual characters would deal with them). David Mack went to a lot of trouble to write this - to finally, unambiguously, END the Borg. If the MU Borg suddenly show up later on, doesn't that cheapen Destiny just a little bit?

But if I'm not mistaken- there are Borg in the MUs, at least in lit. So, unless the Caeliar dealt with or deal with them... then they're there. And I don't think that would cheapen it- I think the RU's experience, since we know contact with the MUs is possible, could help them deal with it- if it comes up. It may not. I'm just saying I won't be furious if they show up in some capasity again- Mack made the Borg scary for me, I wasn't afraid of them at all before- just hand me a Tommy gun... but that won't work against a cube. So now, since they actually cause me to feel emotions, I wouldn't mind if they popped in... thats all I meant.

They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)

That was strange and unexpected... I'd heard a bit about what TGTMD was about... but this I didn't see coming...

You probably should have seen it coming. 2001's Section 31 mini-series featured each of the then-three canonical captains sans Sisko -- Kirk in 2268, Picard in 2373, and Janeway in 2374 -- becoming aware of the existence of Section 31 and vowing to find a way to bring them to justice. The foreshadowing seemed obvious to me at the time.

And, sure enough, The Good That Men Do confirms that Section 31 is eventually uncovered and brought to justice. The only thing remaining to be told is the story of how they were brought to justice.

And Abyss? Did that fit in at all? (Bear in mind- the years make my brain fuzzy). Cause I remember Bashir and Vaugn's discussion... and figured they'd be found eventually... maybe. They must have good hiding skills.

Though I feel less out of the loop knowing that we don't know the how yet.
I rarely venture out of the DS9R, since thats were all my favourites are, for the most part... so I need to be caught up from time to time. Which you guys are awesome at...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I think the RU's experience, since we know contact with the MUs is possible, could help them deal with it- if it comes up.

The Caeliar were the only way to permanently deal with the Borg in the RU, so unless the RU Caeliar somehow absorbed the MU Borg as well, or this whole thing coincidentally happened on its own in the other universe (with Mirror counterparts of the Caeliar, the Columbia crew, etc.), I don't see how that is relevant.

In fact I'd wager that the latter explanation would be pretty much impossible, since much of Destiny depended on characters from the 24th century - who either have not yet been shown to exist *at all* in the MU, or who are so different there that the chances of Destiny happening in the MU are so absurdly remote as to not even be worth mentioning.

 

[Arpy]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Question for David Mack: How/why did you choose the planets/species the Borg annihilated?

I'm guessing people over at Paramount also had to okay the choices, but how do they decide too? And who are they? ...They must be trekkies also or they wouldn't know a Vorta from a Horta.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^On that same note, how was the decision to kill off certain characters (Owen Paris, Charivretha, T'Lana, ect) made?