Destiny Why did they not... BEWARE Spoilers

[wew]

/\ Huh? the point of the debate was on moral issues raised?
The point of the debate was killing the Borg before they killed you.

This was not a first-person shooter game with only virtual lives at stake.The Borg were ripping through the Federation like crap through a goose.If Picard and starfleet didn't act decisively,that was that,end of everything.Forever.Dead.Permanently.Are you getting it yet?

Sitting back waiting for some external deliverance diminishes Picard IMO.

No it isn't a first-person shooter game with only virtual lives at stake; its a book written about events that don't exist and most likely never will thus resulting in no lives being lost.

Yes I do get it. However, your point seems to be "I will do what ever is necessary, whether I believe it is morally wrong or not to justify the ends." Geordi argued the ends do not justify the means, Picard was willing to the means justify the end, at least initially.

My point is this- For some people the ends will never justify the means. After all you don't see a bunch of Amish people going out killing sprees. (Yes, I know a few cases have occured.)

The question is do you actually believe in something so much that you would rather die than violate your morals?

This is what Picard faces, and he initially comes down on the side "I will use an illegal weapon which I would have never condoned in the past, because its needed now."

 

[flandry84]

Would I rather die than betray my morals?Interesting question,but not exactly applicable here.
Picard is not just making a personal choice here.Nor is he deciding for his crew either,who are all volunteer servicemen(women,beings).The fate of the AC is in jeopardy.If the cost of humanitys future is a few sleepless nights for Picard,well,no contest.(That sounds glib,I'll admit).

To paraphrase Gen.Patton......The idea of war is not to die for your country,the idea is to make the other guy die for his.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Great post, obviously you thought this out well. But I have four quibbles with it, which are major differences:

1. You set this up as an either/or situation, and it is not. Hernandez won the day on a argument that was based on: A. The sympathy for the Borg, more importantly, B. the need for Caeliar culture to turn from its path to destruction, and C. The warning that if the Borg win today, they will come for you in time. So I submit to you that Picard has to think "both' not "either/or". The decisions made by the winners here were irrespective of Picard's decision/no-decision.
2. While there is a chance the Weapon might fail, I would argue that Picard had consider that using the weapon might fail, as opposed to not using it, the Caeliar failing, and the Federation will fail. Picard does not know what will happen, and if you have both faith and tools, you have a better chance to win, than just faith alone. We are talking about the total destruction of the populations of a major part of the galaxy here, in numbers so big it is hard to deal with. Your solution here is take the road that guarantees failure if the Caeliar fail, as opposed to the 2% chance of success if the Caeliar fail. If you really believe that this is how humans should act, then our world is in trouble.
3. This idea ignores the fact that others would be getting ready to use the weapon now no matter what Picard does. The Romulans would have used it, since they were the guys who first had a working model, at least. To believe that other, less moral cultures than the Federation would not hesitate to use the weapon is exactly how the US has gotten into wars all through this century, and the last one as well.
4. Sorry, there is no sale for Picard selling his soul in making the weapon. The author may try to sell that line, but all Picard has to do is think about trillions of innocents dying, and the ramifications of failure to the galaxy if the Federation falls. The "Butterfly analogy" works here too. His decision to hold to certain principles may keep his conscience clear, but if the result is 1/4 of the galaxy is a dead zone, is that morally right?
The author is trying sell a moral position full of holes here IMO.

I agree with you, faith is the most powerful tool a person has. But faith has many ways to be applied, not just putting your faith in one hope, when there are other alternatives out there.

Finally, in relationship to other posters, I need to shout: WHY DO YOU THINK POSTPONNING THE BORG"S VICTORY ONLY MEANS FAILURE LATER? So many of you who are posting here automatically assume the Borg will always win in the end if not for some miracle from some outside, higher power?

You are saying, "Don't use the weapons, because it won't work." Do you know that?
Another says: "if you postpone it, the Borg will come back even stronger, and we will be more behind." Really? How do you know that? The Federation has won every war or battle with the Borg up to this time. Cicumstances always change over time, and you cannot assume the guy with the bigger guns will always win, if that was the case the US would have won in Vietnam, the Soviets win in Afganistan, and the English win the American Revolution.

You can buy into the "Borg will always win senario", but that something you are adding to the setting of the Destiny Series, it is not in the books. That is a hole in the 1st book, I admit, because there is no way that any General Staff would take the view that Starfleet Command takes in this book towards use of the weapon, and the fact that we know nothing about what the thinking of the Romulans is opens the door to saying the Romulans decided to load their ships up with every weapon they had, including the radiation.

Thanks for posting, and thanks for reading my post.

While I don't know much in the area of Vietnam so you could be right about that but, I do know that the Soviets got kicked out of Afganistan in no small part because we were giving the people of Afganistan better weapons to use against the Soviets like Stinger missle launchers. And we won the American Revoulution becuase of two reasons.

1) Ultimatly the people back in Britain decided we weren't worth all the trouble.

2) The French help a lot.

Now with the Borg I don't mean to sound rude but people have to understand something that was actually mentioned in Before Dishonor. That the Federation only beat rather small scale Borg invasion of ONE SHIP through not any strategy on their part but DUMB LUCK, I repeat: THE FEDERATION BEAT THE BORG BEFORE BECAUSE OF DUMB LUCK!!!!!!

 

[Silversmok3]

Would I rather die than betray my morals?Interesting question,but not exactly applicable here..
.

Ah but it is.

See,as described above the Alpha Quadrant is not going to prevail against the Borg.That's just cold,hard reality .

The Borg have so much unified resources available that's its like a war of atrittion between the Roman legion vs a US Army M1 tank battalion.

The Roman Legionaire has two options:die living to the law you're fighting to preserve,or die having betrayed your own purpose to fight.

Either way its curtains.If I'm dead no matter what,I'd rather die with a clean conscience.

 

[Sci]

If we do address the question of relative morality and of whether or not the ends justify the means, I think we need to keep something in mind:

Both the MACOS of United Earth and Sedin of the Caeliar belonged to societies that had a specific set of moral principles that they agreed to uphold.

Yet when faced with a desperate situation, both decided to violate their principles. The MACOs did it when they decided to mutiny against Captain Hernandez, betray Thayer, and murder millions of Caeliar in the name of getting home.

Sedin did it when she decided to force the other Caeliar to consolidate with her so that she wouldn't die and to then fuse with the three surviving MACOs.

In other words, both the MACOs and Sedin faced a situation where they decided that the ends justified the means. And as a result of their decision to say that the ends justify the means and that morality is less important than survival, the greatest destructive force in the history of the Milky Way was unleashed on the galaxy and unknown trillions of people were murdered and enslaved.

Just something to think about.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

There is a big difference: The MACOS knew perfectly well what they were doing. They made their choices even if some of the consequences could not be predicted.

Sedin was not thinking at all. Her mind was gone. What was left were basic instincts. What she did had nothing to do with making any decisions. Sedin was not just insane, there was barely anything left of what makes her a living being.

 

[Sci]

There is a big difference: The MACOS knew perfectly well what they were doing. They made their choices even if some of the consequences could not be predicted.

Sedin was not thinking at all. Her mind was gone. What was left were basic instincts. What she did had nothing to do with making any decisions. Sedin was not just insane, there was barely anything left of what makes her a living being.

You sure about that? I'm not.

Take this exchange from page 153 between Sedin and Lerxst:

I will concede your semantic point if you'll answer my question. Are we mere fodder to each other? Will we meet our end united or as mutual predators?

We'll improvise, Sedin said. It's how we survive.

But what of the moral considerations?

They need to be secondary, Sedin replied. All that matters is that we survive until the humans return. Then we shall bond with them, for their own good. Their synaptic pathways can be easily mapped and made compatible with our needs. As soon as it becomes practical, we will facilitate their journey toward this planet's middle latitudes.

You underestimate the humans' natural antipathy for enslavement, Lerxst warned.

And you overestimate the strength of their free will.

He suspected that only bitter experience would disabuse Sedin of her illusion of omnipotence. Heed me, he told her. If you try to yoke them, they will fight back.

Let them, Sedin replied. They will lose.

Clearly, she made the decision to "assimilate" the MACOs long before her mind had fully deteriorated. Further, upon enslaving them, she was more than capable of engaging in long-term planning -- recognizing that the Graylock's engineering knowledge made him more valuable than Pembleton, recognizing that she would need to preserve a male and a female to create future drones, and then being able to figure out which parts of Pembleton's body were edible for the enslaved Thayer and Graylock. And then, of course, recognizing how to spread her "infection" to the rest of Arehaz's Kindir.

While it's fair to say that her mind continued to degenerate before she managed to enslave them, I also think it's obvious that she made the decision to create the first Borg long before she became incognizant.

 

[Silversmok3]

There is a big difference: The MACOS knew perfectly well what they were doing. They made their choices even if some of the consequences could not be predicted.

Sedin was not thinking at all. Her mind was gone. What was left were basic instincts. What she did had nothing to do with making any decisions. Sedin was not just insane, there was barely anything left of what makes her a living being.

But remember,the meeting when between Sedin and Lexirst upon the human's rejection of his idea indicates Sedin knew the game she was playing.

She argued that seizing the survivors against their will was a viable alternative,and Lexirst warned her that,like our thalaron dilemma,a forced bond would be an incomplete and reprehensible solution.

And guess what?Lexirst won that argument hardcore.Sedin still died.But instead of dying with a conscience befitting her race,she died after enslaving and murdering hundreds of billions of lives because of her own fear of the inevitable.

That's the consequence of damning morality to save your skin.You take down everyone else with you trying to avoid your demise-despite that demise being unavoidable.

 

[Sci]

There is a big difference: The MACOS knew perfectly well what they were doing. They made their choices even if some of the consequences could not be predicted.

Sedin was not thinking at all. Her mind was gone. What was left were basic instincts. What she did had nothing to do with making any decisions. Sedin was not just insane, there was barely anything left of what makes her a living being.

But remember,the meeting when between Sedin and Lexirst upon the human's rejection of his idea indicates Sedin knew the game she was playing.

She argued that seizing the survivors against their will was a viable alternative,and Lexirst warned her that,like our thalaron dilemma,a forced bond would be an incomplete and reprehensible solution.

And guess what?Lexirst won that argument hardcore.Sedin still died.But instead of dying with a conscience befitting her race,she died after enslaving and murdering hundreds of billions of lives because of her own fear of the inevitable.

That's the consequence of damning morality to save your skin.You take down everyone else with you trying to avoid your demise-despite that demise being unavoidable.

Well, yeah, it's a POSSIBLE consequence. There are worse fates than even extinction -- such as transforming the race you're trying to save into a race of monsters. A similar example can be found in Series Three of Doctor Who, wherein

Spoiler: Doctor Who Series Three

the Human race, having survived to the year 100 Trillion, is trying to escape the heat death of the Universe by transforming themselves into smaller, energy-efficient creatures called the Toclafane and then traveling back in time to 2008 to invade and enslave the Earth, creating a new empire under the leadership of the Time Lord known as the Master that would subjugate the rest of the galaxy. Clearly, just accepting their own extinction would have been a far preferable solution to becoming such a race of monsters.

On the other hand, it's questionable whether or not the thalaron weapon would be the same as that.

It's a very hard question.

 

[Silversmok3]

There is a big difference: The MACOS knew perfectly well what they were doing. They made their choices even if some of the consequences could not be predicted.

Sedin was not thinking at all. Her mind was gone. What was left were basic instincts. What she did had nothing to do with making any decisions. Sedin was not just insane, there was barely anything left of what makes her a living being.

But remember,the meeting when between Sedin and Lexirst upon the human's rejection of his idea indicates Sedin knew the game she was playing.

She argued that seizing the survivors against their will was a viable alternative,and Lexirst warned her that,like our thalaron dilemma,a forced bond would be an incomplete and reprehensible solution.

And guess what?Lexirst won that argument hardcore.Sedin still died.But instead of dying with a conscience befitting her race,she died after enslaving and murdering hundreds of billions of lives because of her own fear of the inevitable.

That's the consequence of damning morality to save your skin.You take down everyone else with you trying to avoid your demise-despite that demise being unavoidable.

Well, yeah, it's a POSSIBLE consequence. There are worse fates than even extinction -- such as transforming the race you're trying to save into a race of monsters. A similar example can be found in Series Three of Doctor Who, wherein

Spoiler: Doctor Who Series Three

the Human race, having survived to the year 100 Trillion, is trying to escape the heat death of the Universe by transforming themselves into smaller, energy-efficient creatures called the Toclafane and then traveling back in time to 2008 to invade and enslave the Earth, creating a new empire under the leadership of the Time Lord known as the Master that would subjugate the rest of the galaxy. Clearly, just accepting their own extinction would have been a far preferable solution to becoming such a race of monsters.

On the other hand, it's questionable whether or not the thalaron weapon would be the same as that.

It's a very hard question.

It comes down to this;Its better to die on righteous ground,then to resort to murder,genocide,or the risk thereof to attempt to survive.

The Caeliar understood this well as a society.Were it not for their human guests they would have chosen death at Erigol in the supernova rather than attempt a hasty getaway via subspace tunnel,as their law prohibits time travel.

Now let's play God and flip the script;
Would it be better pragmatically that the Caliar , populating millions of creative ,enlightened ,diverse and advanced peoples died at Erigol en-masse than survive at the cost of creating the Borg?

I'd say ,and not without some heavy reflection,that the extinction of the Caeliar(and the death of Columbia's crew) would be less tragic and a better outcome than the creation of the Borg.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

There is a big difference: The MACOS knew perfectly well what they were doing. They made their choices even if some of the consequences could not be predicted.

Sedin was not thinking at all. Her mind was gone. What was left were basic instincts. What she did had nothing to do with making any decisions. Sedin was not just insane, there was barely anything left of what makes her a living being.

But remember,the meeting when between Sedin and Lexirst upon the human's rejection of his idea indicates Sedin knew the game she was playing.

She argued that seizing the survivors against their will was a viable alternative,and Lexirst warned her that,like our thalaron dilemma,a forced bond would be an incomplete and reprehensible solution.

And guess what?Lexirst won that argument hardcore.Sedin still died.But instead of dying with a conscience befitting her race,she died after enslaving and murdering hundreds of billions of lives because of her own fear of the inevitable.

That's the consequence of damning morality to save your skin.You take down everyone else with you trying to avoid your demise-despite that demise being unavoidable.

Would Sedin really have forced the merging with the humans if she would have been mentally able? I don`t know. Maybe.

But even if that had happened, what caused the Borg threat was that the mind behind it was reduced to primal urges, first of all hunger. I doubt it that a fully mentally capable Sedin would have wanted to start something like the Borg threat.

But the instinct was there and when her reasoning was destroyed, it took over.

That means, I still think that I am right.

 

[Sci]

Would Sedin really have forced the merging with the humans if she would have been mentally able? I don`t know. Maybe.

I think so. She wasn't mentally unstable during her argument with Lexrst. She had just been granted renewed energy through the consolidation of another Caeliar; his and her minds were both restored to full clarity at that time. And that's when she made her decision.

Her mind may have been further degenerated to a status of almost total blind hunger at the time that she actually enslaved them, sure. And it's entirely possible that Sedin, in her normal state of mind, would only have enslaved those three and not any other, and would never have wanted to create the Borg Collective.

But the fact remains that whilst in full cognizance, she made the deliberate decision to violate the moral principles upon which Caeliar civilization was built in order to ensure her own survival. And that choice led to the rise of the Borg. Similarly, the MACOs and Graylock surely never meant for their attempts to liberate themselves from Caeliar custody to lead to the near-destruction of Caeliar civilization and the destruction of Erigol, but those were the consequences of their choices.

That's my point: Both groups, the MACOs and Sedin, made the deliberate decision to violate their societies' moral codes in the name of "the greater good" or "the ends justify the means." And the decision to disregard morality directly led both groups to be transformed into hideous monsters -- the Borg. Whether it was intentional or not, that was the consequence.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There is a big difference: The MACOS knew perfectly well what they were doing. They made their choices even if some of the consequences could not be predicted.

Sedin was not thinking at all. Her mind was gone. What was left were basic instincts. What she did had nothing to do with making any decisions. Sedin was not just insane, there was barely anything left of what makes her a living being.

But remember,the meeting when between Sedin and Lexirst upon the human's rejection of his idea indicates Sedin knew the game she was playing.

She argued that seizing the survivors against their will was a viable alternative,and Lexirst warned her that,like our thalaron dilemma,a forced bond would be an incomplete and reprehensible solution.

And guess what?Lexirst won that argument hardcore.Sedin still died.But instead of dying with a conscience befitting her race,she died after enslaving and murdering hundreds of billions of lives because of her own fear of the inevitable.

That's the consequence of damning morality to save your skin.You take down everyone else with you trying to avoid your demise-despite that demise being unavoidable.

Well, yeah, it's a POSSIBLE consequence. There are worse fates than even extinction -- such as transforming the race you're trying to save into a race of monsters. A similar example can be found in Series Three of Doctor Who, wherein

Spoiler: Doctor Who Series Three

the Human race, having survived to the year 100 Trillion, is trying to escape the heat death of the Universe by transforming themselves into smaller, energy-efficient creatures called the Toclafane and then traveling back in time to 2008 to invade and enslave the Earth, creating a new empire under the leadership of the Time Lord known as the Master that would subjugate the rest of the galaxy. Clearly, just accepting their own extinction would have been a far preferable solution to becoming such a race of monsters.

On the other hand, it's questionable whether or not the thalaron weapon would be the same as that.

It's a very hard question.

Not to mention the Classic Doctor Who Cybermen origin.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Would Sedin really have forced the merging with the humans if she would have been mentally able? I don`t know. Maybe.

I think so. She wasn't mentally unstable during her argument with Lexrst. She had just been granted renewed energy through the consolidation of another Caeliar; his and her minds were both restored to full clarity at that time. And that's when she made her decision.

Her mind may have been further degenerated to a status of almost total blind hunger at the time that she actually enslaved them, sure. And it's entirely possible that Sedin, in her normal state of mind, would only have enslaved those three and not any other, and would never have wanted to create the Borg Collective.

But the fact remains that whilst in full cognizance, she made the deliberate decision to violate the moral principles upon which Caeliar civilization was built in order to ensure her own survival. And that choice led to the rise of the Borg. Similarly, the MACOs and Graylock surely never meant for their attempts to liberate themselves from Caeliar custody to lead to the near-destruction of Caeliar civilization and the destruction of Erigol, but those were the consequences of their choices.

That's my point: Both groups, the MACOs and Sedin, made the deliberate decision to violate their societies' moral codes in the name of "the greater good" or "the ends justify the means." And the decision to disregard morality directly led both groups to be transformed into hideous monsters -- the Borg. Whether it was intentional or not, that was the consequence.

I don`t think we disagree here.

The key question remains, are Sedin and the MACOs to blame for the creation of the Borg? And this is the point where we disagree.

 

[Silversmok3]

Would Sedin really have forced the merging with the humans if she would have been mentally able? I don`t know. Maybe.

I think so. She wasn't mentally unstable during her argument with Lexrst. She had just been granted renewed energy through the consolidation of another Caeliar; his and her minds were both restored to full clarity at that time. And that's when she made her decision.

Her mind may have been further degenerated to a status of almost total blind hunger at the time that she actually enslaved them, sure. And it's entirely possible that Sedin, in her normal state of mind, would only have enslaved those three and not any other, and would never have wanted to create the Borg Collective.

But the fact remains that whilst in full cognizance, she made the deliberate decision to violate the moral principles upon which Caeliar civilization was built in order to ensure her own survival. And that choice led to the rise of the Borg. Similarly, the MACOs and Graylock surely never meant for their attempts to liberate themselves from Caeliar custody to lead to the near-destruction of Caeliar civilization and the destruction of Erigol, but those were the consequences of their choices.

That's my point: Both groups, the MACOs and Sedin, made the deliberate decision to violate their societies' moral codes in the name of "the greater good" or "the ends justify the means." And the decision to disregard morality directly led both groups to be transformed into hideous monsters -- the Borg. Whether it was intentional or not, that was the consequence.

I don`t think we disagree here.

The key question remains, are Sedin and the MACOs to blame for the creation of the Borg? And this is the point where we disagree.

Yes, they are.

Just like we hold drunk drivers responsible for the deaths/destruction they create as a consequence of their decision to drink then drive, the same ethos applies here.

Granted, Sedin and the MACO's didnt intend to enslave billions. And no drunk driver plans to get wasted so she can kill a family of four.But thats why there's laws-they exist to prevent harm to others by limiting personal actions.

There's a reason Caeliar law prohibits bonding with others by force. There's a reason United Earth law prohibits hostage taking and violating your superior officer's orders.

By both groups breaking their own laws for the sake of survival they created a monster.

If they were alive to be tried , the MACO's would be court-martialed for their actions. And the Caeliar already dealt with Sedin.

 

[Sci]

I think so. She wasn't mentally unstable during her argument with Lexrst. She had just been granted renewed energy through the consolidation of another Caeliar; his and her minds were both restored to full clarity at that time. And that's when she made her decision.

Her mind may have been further degenerated to a status of almost total blind hunger at the time that she actually enslaved them, sure. And it's entirely possible that Sedin, in her normal state of mind, would only have enslaved those three and not any other, and would never have wanted to create the Borg Collective.

But the fact remains that whilst in full cognizance, she made the deliberate decision to violate the moral principles upon which Caeliar civilization was built in order to ensure her own survival. And that choice led to the rise of the Borg. Similarly, the MACOs and Graylock surely never meant for their attempts to liberate themselves from Caeliar custody to lead to the near-destruction of Caeliar civilization and the destruction of Erigol, but those were the consequences of their choices.

That's my point: Both groups, the MACOs and Sedin, made the deliberate decision to violate their societies' moral codes in the name of "the greater good" or "the ends justify the means." And the decision to disregard morality directly led both groups to be transformed into hideous monsters -- the Borg. Whether it was intentional or not, that was the consequence.

I don`t think we disagree here.

The key question remains, are Sedin and the MACOs to blame for the creation of the Borg? And this is the point where we disagree.

Yes, they are.

Just like we hold drunk drivers responsible for the deaths/destruction they create as a consequence of their decision to drink then drive, the same ethos applies here.

Granted, Sedin and the MACO's didnt intend to enslave billions. And no drunk driver plans to get wasted so she can kill a family of four.But thats why there's laws-they exist to prevent harm to others by limiting personal actions.

There's a reason Caeliar law prohibits bonding with others by force. There's a reason United Earth law prohibits hostage taking and violating your superior officer's orders.

By both groups breaking their own laws for the sake of survival they created a monster.

If they were alive to be tried , the MACO's would be court-martialed for their actions. And the Caeliar already dealt with Sedin.

Hmm. I'm not sure I would blame the MACOs for the Borg. I would certainly blame them for creating the conditions that prompted Sedin to forcibly enslave them.

But to my mind, it's Sedin who made the decision to enslave the Humans, and, as such, she's the one who is to blame for the Borg themselves.

 

[Marie1]

^ But can you imagine being in her place? Trapped on that ship with so few of her own people surviving in part from what the MACOs did... with those violent humans? Even if she wouldn't have been capable of what she did before, after that I don't see why not...

Maybe her consciousness would rather have gone to rest with her companions rather than that anger which must've existed, that resentment.

 

[Silversmok3]

I don`t think we disagree here.

The key question remains, are Sedin and the MACOs to blame for the creation of the Borg? And this is the point where we disagree.

Yes, they are.

Just like we hold drunk drivers responsible for the deaths/destruction they create as a consequence of their decision to drink then drive, the same ethos applies here.

Granted, Sedin and the MACO's didnt intend to enslave billions. And no drunk driver plans to get wasted so she can kill a family of four.But thats why there's laws-they exist to prevent harm to others by limiting personal actions.

There's a reason Caeliar law prohibits bonding with others by force. There's a reason United Earth law prohibits hostage taking and violating your superior officer's orders.

By both groups breaking their own laws for the sake of survival they created a monster.

If they were alive to be tried , the MACO's would be court-martialed for their actions. And the Caeliar already dealt with Sedin.

Hmm. I'm not sure I would blame the MACOs for the Borg. I would certainly blame them for creating the conditions that prompted Sedin to forcibly enslave them.

But to my mind, it's Sedin who made the decision to enslave the Humans, and, as such, she's the one who is to blame for the Borg themselves.

I would punish the MACO's only for the direct consequences of their mutiny-Attempted Murder (Thayer),violation of Capt. Hernandez's orders, kidnapping and threatening an alien civilization.

That's enough of a rap sheet to merit life in D-block at Leavenworth.

Keep in mind Inyx already determined that the humans were not at fault for causing the destruction of Erigol.

As far as Sedin is concerned, I dont know how the Caeliar Quarum would react to her crimes, but choosing to forcibly bond with a Human would probably merit their equivalent of life in the slammer.

All that said, having created the Borg is punishment enough for the lot of em.....

 

[Sci]

^ But can you imagine being in her place? Trapped on that ship with so few of her own people surviving in part from what the MACOs did... with those violent humans? Even if she wouldn't have been capable of what she did before, after that I don't see why not...

There's no excuse for slavery. None whatsoever. Especially not for making the deliberate decision to violate someone else's mind and body. She broke Caeliar law, and she broke the Golden Rule.

Maybe her consciousness would rather have gone to rest with her companions rather than that anger which must've existed, that resentment.

No. She made the deliberate decision to create the Borg long before her consciousness degraded.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I don`t think that comparison works.

I have no sympathy for drink drivers whatsoever.

I also don`t deny that the MACOs committed crimes they would have been court-martialed for. But I don`t think they would be punished for becoming Sedin`s first victims.

We also should be careful and separate between what people say and what they actually do. Sometimes people have dark thoughts and consider actions that would be wrong. But what counts at the end is what people do and if we can consider them responsible for their actions. In my opinion Sedin was worse than insane, there was hardly anything left of her. The way the Caeliar “dealt with” her is finally letting her go, or more bluntly, granting her a mercy killing because the person she was died a very long time ago.