Equinox ethical question/Ethical questions in Voyager

[voyagerfan]

I sneaked a look at half of the two parter and I seen that the crew of the USS Equinox where using dead aliens as a power supply.

Do you agree with Janeway's view and the prime directive issue or would you side with Capt Ransom?

Also do you agree on the testing they did in "Scientific method" or even the vidians, stealing other organs as they're doing "transplants". Voyager poses a myriad of ethical questions to the viewer.

What's everyones views on the various ethical questions which we see in the series? (How to tell I am a fan of the Dr)

 

[sbk1234]

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't the Equinox crew trapping live beings for their power source? That, to me, seems like much more in the area of clearly unacceptable.

 

[voyagerfan]

Oh yeah they did, the used the charm thingy that the alien species gave them didn't they? but in the first part, we clearly see him once the being was killed was take them to the lab?

 

[Silversmok3]

They trapped sentient aliens and killed the for 'gasoline'

Yeah,that's murder X a few hundred,definitely a gross violation of every rule and law.

 

[voyagerfan]

hence Ransom didn't want to let the Voyager crew see it?

What about the Vidians and their organ harvesting? we know about the Tuvix argument!

 

[Candlelight]

Equinox violated the prime directive, attacked a sentient species and harvested it for their own benefits. They are guilty, as much as they try and deny it.

However, after five years with a smashed up ship, minimal supplies and resources and limited crew, they were desperate. They needed to do something otherwise they would die. It is very easy for Voyager to come along and be critical given they have a very functional ship, better resources and more crew members.

Think of Sir Ernest Shackleton and the Endurance. He and 27 others were stranded for 2 years in Antarctica in 1914, they lost their ship, they had to find a way home as best they could with limited food and three small life boats. They were forced to kill seals and other animals in order to survive. If a much better-stocked vessel turned up and were critical of their actions, I doubt Shackleton would care what they thought.

I don't justify Ransom's actions, but I can see why he did it.

 

[Timo]

What Ransom was up to is not just a clear-cut question of whether what he decided to do was right or wrong. More importantly, it's a question of what to do after having made an obvious wrong choice.

Ransom was in a bad jam, and he thought he had found a way out by burning those aliens in his engine. But the episode established that those aliens could easily travel at the speed of the boosted ship, as they had followed Ransom all the way. So essentially, Ransom could have asked them for a ride! But he had already burned his bridges along with the first of his victims (probably long before realizing that these aliens were capable of high speed and long range travel), which was an important aspect in why he couldn't stop now. He had to keep on murdering those aliens so that they wouldn't murder him. I wonder what he planned to do after reaching Earth...

With Vidiians, it was more clear-cut: they knew what they were doing, from the very beginning, and only kept doing it because of their own reasons (it was the only way to fight the Phage that they or anybody else knew of), not because they had burned their bridges.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kimc]

Ransom was in a bad jam, and he thought he had found a way out by burning those aliens in his engine. But the episode established that those aliens could easily travel at the speed of the boosted ship, as they had followed Ransom all the way. So essentially, Ransom could have asked them for a ride! But he had already burned his bridges along with the first of his victims (probably long before realizing that these aliens were capable of high speed and long range travel), which was an important aspect in why he couldn't stop now.

This is why Janeway is a much better captain than Ransom. Starship captains should be building bridges with alien races, not burning them to the point that the aliens want to come after the ship.

 

[Sisko4Life]

Now, don't be so hasty in saying that Janeway was such a better captain. You have to look at what the Equinox crew went through and where they started (battered ship, no supplies, no FOOD). Again, murdering for their personal goals is wrong, but it essentially was if we don't do something we all are going to die anyway. Ransom at least brought Earth within striking distance.

But he had already burned his bridges along with the first of his victims (probably long before realizing that these aliens were capable of high speed and long range travel), which was an important aspect in why he couldn't stop now. He had to keep on murdering those aliens so that they wouldn't murder him. I wonder what he planned to do after reaching Earth...

Pretty much says it all. His entire crew gets commended for achieving such a fantastic feat of traveling accross the Galaxy in 5 years. Then a fissure opens up behind the podium when he gives a speech at Starfleet Headquarters, and aliens fly out and kill them all. Yup, he had no way out of it at that point.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Also do you agree on the testing they did in "Scientific method" or even the vidians, stealing other organs as they're doing "transplants". Voyager poses a myriad of ethical questions to the viewer.

You can do anything you want to lower life forms. It's just a question of defining what a lower life form is, but considering no humans, according to Riker back in the beginning any longer eat meat because they have too much respect form animals... Sisko is the antiRiker on so many levels. Then again Riker made eggs that time, and experimented with Klingon food before he jumped ship?

They trapped sentient aliens and killed the for 'gasoline'

Yeah, that's murder X a few hundred, definitely a gross violation of every rule and law.

Ransom cited one rule. A broad one: "by any means necessary" However the Babylon 5 episode by that name was all about the broadness of such a law that it allows for government troops to open fire on Unionists and Teamsters if they get in the way of the Governments efficiency.

Janeway later ignored Directive 101 when she tortured Noah Lessing, first seen in Meld when Suter was made aware that he had the right not to incriminate himself, similar enough to America's 5th Amendment.

Equinox violated the prime directive, attacked a sentient species and harvested it for their own benefits. They are guilty, as much as they try and deny it.

Think of Sir Ernest Shackleton and the Endurance. He and 27 others were stranded for 2 years in Antarctica in 1914, they lost their ship, they had to find a way home as best they could with limited food and three small life boats. They were forced to kill seals and other animals in order to survive. If a much better-stocked vessel turned up and were critical of their actions, I doubt Shackleton would care what they thought.

I don't justify Ransom's actions, but I can see why he did it.

It's arguable that for the first couple beasties they slaughtered that they might have assumed/hoped that they were merely animals and not sentient and rational, but here's the real kicker... Ransom was under no super human obligation to get his crew home. Janeway made it clear that she'd set up camp if her crew dipped below a hundred back before it was a running gag with the writers that she was mental and suicidal. In the end when they were down to 7 crewmen, they were still ready to sacrifice another 60 beasties and Voyagers crew and finally all of earth if they made it that far.

Ransom was in a bad jam, and he thought he had found a way out by burning those aliens in his engine. But the episode established that those aliens could easily travel at the speed of the boosted ship, as they had followed Ransom all the way. So essentially, Ransom could have asked them for a ride! But he had already burned his bridges along with the first of his victims (probably long before realizing that these aliens were capable of high speed and long range travel), which was an important aspect in why he couldn't stop now.

This is why Janeway is a much better captain than Ransom. Starship captains should be building bridges with alien races, not burning them to the point that the aliens want to come after the ship.

Yes they should build bridges, and even though Janeway was a trigger happy loon in the later years, you'll remember that she sacrificed her fuel reserve to patch up a space omeba they tried to plumb for fuel and they took a step back in the Next Emanation when they figured out that there new fuel source was a grave yard full of properly consecrated corpses... Although if they could figure out which bodies were lovingly put to rest and which were guilted into forced suicide? Never mind.

Now, don't be so hasty in saying that Janeway was such a better captain. You have to look at what the Equinox crew went through and where they started (battered ship, no supplies, no FOOD). Again, murdering for their personal goals is wrong, but it essentially was if we don't do something we all are going to die anyway. Ransom at least brought Earth within striking distance.

But he had already burned his bridges along with the first of his victims (probably long before realizing that these aliens were capable of high speed and long range travel), which was an important aspect in why he couldn't stop now. He had to keep on murdering those aliens so that they wouldn't murder him. I wonder what he planned to do after reaching Earth...

Pretty much says it all. His entire crew gets commended for achieving such a fantastic feat of travelling across the Galaxy in 5 years. Then a fissure opens up behind the podium when he gives a speech at Starfleet Headquarters, and aliens fly out and kill them all. Yup, he had no way out of it at that point.

It was badly badly planed story.

However if one lone crappy starship can keep these beasties in line, thousands of starships and millions or batteries and trillions of soliders and quadrillions of hand weapons... And if the federation is more than willing to abide with using holograms as a slave race and needed a wanton dog and pony show to atest that Data was not their slave, which might just be pertaining to a case by case basis that individually B4 wouldn't stand a shit show in defending his sovereign rights in a court of law considering they were about set to take over Lal's education in favour of her fathers interests and wishes... What's so bad about another slave race that even if they cloned these buggers to have no central nervous system of brain system or the equivalent that their biology impersonates... Their could have been an entire new generation of cowboys farming these beasties as livestock whether they can think or not.

 

[Anika Hanson]

I agree with Janeway's stance on the Equninox's actions but she herself was hardly ethical in the way she dealt with it.

 

[Timo]

...considering no humans, according to Riker back in the beginning any longer eat meat because they have too much respect form animals...

Actually, all Riker says is that animals are no longer enslaved for food purposes. Wild animals are fair game, as the avid fisherman Riker himself attests. And eating of meat seems perfectly okay, as long as it doesn't come from captive and thus supposedly inhumanely (inpoultrily?) tortured stock.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

I'm with Janeway on this one. The Federation is not about using sentient life-forms to serve its own ends. They proved that when they ruled that replicating Data would create a slave race.

Janeway did go over the top in her pursuit of Ransom, however. It's a shame that they elected not to continue to explore the integration of the Equinox crewmembers in to Voyager's crew.

 

[Spock-2012]

I sneaked a look at half of the two parter and I seen that the crew of the USS Equinox where using dead aliens as a power supply.

Do you agree with Janeway's view and the prime directive issue or would you side with Capt Ransom?

Also do you agree on the testing they did in "Scientific method" or even the vidians, stealing other organs as they're doing "transplants". Voyager poses a myriad of ethical questions to the viewer.

What's everyones views on the various ethical questions which we see in the series? (How to tell I am a fan of the Dr)

Well, I think Janeway's views on the Prime Directive are generally the correct way to go, but there ARE some exceptions. She doesn't seem to see that. I'm sort of in the middle, though more leaning towards Janeway.

The testing and Videans. I...Do....NOT...Agree with THAT. Ever. It's completely evil, in multiple ways!

Also, there's the issue with the Dr being "human". (Also big fan of the Doc.) In an episode....I can't remember which...he mentions how he feels like he's not being treated human, and wants to be treated equally to the others. I agree that the Doc is quite human-like. He has a very likeable personality, has emotions, and hobbies (Something about half the crew doesn't have). The only real difference is what he literally is. But seriously, who cares??

So that's my view.

 

[kimc]

I agree with Janeway's stance on the Equninox's actions but she herself was hardly ethical in the way she dealt with it.

That's actually the point. Does being morally right give you the license to go over the line? Janeway danced pretty close to that line but fortunately pulled back in time. I like to compare her behavior with Kirk's in the TOS episode "Obsession". Both captains wanted justice to the point where it became enough of an obsession to threaten their moral center.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But Janeway didn't do anything.

For all her strutting and chasing, it was Ransoms psychotic break, or maybe it was a psychotic repair, that had Seven cameo in his holodream recreation that reminded him he was doing bad... And then bad guy number two, which was a fair pan to Eargo(sp?) from Othello who had been badgering Ransom the whole way to be a bastard got eaten.

In the end janeways actions were pointless so it's in no way a win or a loss for her since she was only just above involving herself as merely an observer, that she helped Ransom when he decided that he was wrong, despite all the moral guide lines she hurdled and limboed.

Really she even broke her deal with the space beasties since she should have fed the Equinox 5 to the space beasties if she was a woman of her word, and not just jumping ship from the worst deal imaginable, being a mercinary for an alien group because she didn't want to be executed herself for Ransoms crimes.

Talk about playing boomerang with the buck.

 

[2 of 10]

I have watched Equinox several times, with the exception of "Year of Hell"
Voyager had never been in the circumstances that Equinox was in, no food for 16 day, only had thusters for power, missing deck plates. Also the crew of Equinox had not started out to just start killing the species, they had caught one just to check it out, the scene show Ransom telling them to beam it out, but they could not. They then found out that the creatures could be used for fuel, they were still in the same shape when Voyager found them, he quoted a Star Fleet directive that allowed a Capt to use whatever means nessary to save his crew.

After Janeway found out, her response was unreasonable to say the least, after she had Ransom brought to the confrence room, she beraits him, ignores the facts that his crew would probably die if they did not do what they had done, and what really pissed me off about Janeway was when Ransom asked for the to be lienient to his crew for they were just following his orders her reply is "their mistake" and when she would have killed Noah Lessing unless he gave her Ransoms plans, is that not against Star-Fleet rules and protocals. Granted, Ransom made mistakes after Voyager rescued them, however, Janeway was also responsible for what happened. Finally, would Chakotay been within his duties as XO to challenge Janeways decisions, and relived her of command??

Resistance is Futile

 

[Candlelight]

Finally, would Chakotay been within his duties as XO to challenge Janeways decisions, and relived her of command??

I doubt Janeway would've followed 'those' regulations, but it has to be asked how much responsibility Chakotay was given. Because he was Maquis first and foremost, could he have Janeway stood down? Did he need Tuvok's support? Would Tuvok even go against Janeway (memory of episodes where he might have have slipped my mind)?

 

[kimc]

After Janeway found out, her response was unreasonable to say the least, after she had Ransom brought to the confrence room, she beraits him, ignores the facts that his crew would probably die if they did not do what they had done, and what really pissed me off about Janeway was when Ransom asked for the to be lienient to his crew for they were just following his orders her reply is "their mistake" and when she would have killed Noah Lessing unless he gave her Ransoms plans, is that not against Star-Fleet rules and protocals. Granted, Ransom made mistakes after Voyager rescued them, however, Janeway was also responsible for what happened. Finally, would Chakotay been within his duties as XO to challenge Janeways decisions, and relived her of command??

Resistance is Futile

These were not "mistakes". Ransom knew they were killing sentient beings. As for the "they were just following my orders" defense it didn't apply during the Nuremberg trials and it certainly didn't apply here. Ransom and his crew were not only murderers but then they left the Voyager crew behind to be punished for their crimes.

Quite frankly if given the choice between following a Janeway or a Ransom I'd take Janeway.

 

[voyagerfan]

The worst thing is that the Nova class vessel IS a science class vessel as well, so these guys knew kinda what they were doing and I'd have janeway as a captain also