Batman Vs. Cpt America and JLA vs. The Avengers

[Vanyel]

The M7 of the JLA, along with teamwork from the other members, can out power or even just out last the Avengers in a fight.

And your proof of this is? Esp given that I've shown already how your "big guns" can be handled by multiple Avengers?

Isn't this also assuming that the JLA would not use team work? Are you telling me that JLA would not watch each others back? You used an example of "dog piling", while dog piling is a good, proven method, it does have its own fatal flaws. Think of it as a blitz used in football. When the defense uses the blitz, it risks leaving one or more people wide open and can allow for a big play like a receiver open with lots of running room due to a mismatch or blown coverage; or a screen play that leaves the running back with a lot of open field. Double or triple teaming has the same weakness, someone would be open, or in a mismatch. The same can be said in battle. Concentrating your forces leaves other areas with little, to no defense.

The JLA would not let its members go solo. Let's look at Superman vs. Thor. WW with her powers from the Olympian gods could add a second punch against Thor. She is strong, near Superman's level, trained in multiple forms of combat with a high resistance to injury, her Lasso could be used to bind Thor, and as I understand it, it cannot be broken. That can give Superman precious time to batter Thor with a few super speed punches. If The Scarlet Witch tried to attack Superman, knowing he is as vulnerable to magic as anyone, he could then be backed up by Dr. Fate or Zatanna or The Phantom Stranger.

Like I said before teamwork can be used by either side, and, as you said, you can come up with any number of counter parts to battle one another.

I am just of this attitude (and this isn't the first time I've encountered it) that the Justice League are these all-powerful gods that no hero or villain in any universe can EVER hope to withstand.

They're powerful, no doubt about it...but they are NOT invincible. No matter how many times you say it, Ive shown you a refutation of it, showing how a specific Avenger or Avengers can handle them.

The JLA and Avengers are strong teams. However, when I mention teamwork works for the JLA too, you don't refute that. They both use team work. Both teams would most likely fight in small groups so as to guard each others back.

Simply reiterating "It's tEh SUPERman! (or wGrEEn LanTERN, or hoever) is not proving anything.

I don't think I ever said that, I haven't looked back through the thread, so maybe I did. I don't know. It's late and I have to get up early to go to Mass. However if I did say it's Superman along with GL then that would be a combo that the Avengers would need to quickly counter with one of their own. Then again, the JLA could use Superman, GL and WW as a way to draw fire from the the other Avengers' big guns, leaving the remain 4 of the M7 (You know this is really the first time I have heard that term used in reference to the JLA and I can only think of 5 who could be in it: SM, GL, WW, BM and tMM) to heavy hit weaker Avengers. Again team work.

And just so you don't miss it: I DO NOT DOUBT THAT FOR EVER MEMBER OF THE JLA THERE IS AN AVENGER THAT CAN COUNTER THEM AND VICE VERSA.

"Counter" does not mean beat.

I am of the opinion that the JLA can beat the Avengers. The battle would be bloody, some members may even end up dead (and I wouldn't want to live anywhere in the same state that the battle takes place in) but in MY opinion, the JLA, while bloodied would be the last team standing; at worst it would be a Pyrrhic Victory.

 

[Cicero]

I am of the opinion that the JLA can beat the Avengers. The battle would be bloody, some members may even end up dead (and I wouldn't want to live anywhere in the same state that the battle takes place in) but in MY opinion, the JLA, while bloodied would be the last team standing; at worst it would be a Pyrrhic Victory.

As powerful as the JLA are, I don't think they could overcome the Sentry (if he fought unreservedly), whose physical and mental powers are on a level undreamed of by the others of DC's and Marvel's most powerful heroes or the Scarlet Witch, whose ability to warp reality at the speed of thought has been presented as essentially impossible to counter. She thinks as fast as Superman and the Flash move (and on the short scale of distances within the human head), and has the power to destroy them as fast as that. If she desires to be unhurt, she is unhurt. If she desires to win or to destroy, she wins, she destroys. These two are as gods of power well beyond the Olympian scale that characterizes DC's strongest heroes.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

The JLA would not let its members go solo. Let's look at Superman vs. Thor. WW with her powers from the Olympian gods could add a second punch against Thor. She is strong, near Superman's level, trained in multiple forms of combat with a high resistance to injury, her Lasso could be used to bind Thor, and as I understand it, it cannot be broken. That can give Superman precious time to batter Thor with a few super speed punches.

If WW steps in to help Supes, why can't Giant Man, Sersi, or Warbird [Carol Danvers] (just to name three) step in to help Thor? Any of those three could take on WW punch for punch, and Warbird has energy blasts to allow her to pound WW from range.

You can't only let one side use teamwork.

If The Scarlet Witch tried to attack Superman, knowing he is as vulnerable to magic as anyone, he could then be backed up by Dr. Fate or Zatanna or The Phantom Stranger.

As could SW to counter the counter. And any Avenger could counter a mystic in theory...all they have to do is keep them occupied and not countering SW.

The JLA and Avengers are strong teams. However, when I mention teamwork works for the JLA too, you don't refute that. They both use team work. Both teams would most likely fight in small groups so as to guard each others back.

Agreed to an extent, which is why the odds are not as in JLAs favor as you seem to think...

I am of the opinion that the JLA can beat the Avengers. The battle would be bloody, some members may even end up dead (and I wouldn't want to live anywhere in the same state that the battle takes place in) but in MY opinion, the JLA, while bloodied would be the last team standing; at worst it would be a Pyrrhic Victory.

And I think at best it would be a stand-off or Pyrrhic victory, (with a win being a matter of luck more than power or skill).

 

[Nerys Myk]

this is a no brainer. Captain America has been enhanced with the strength and agility of many men, then trained on the battlefields of WWII and beyond...and carries a shield which is made admantium and vibranium. Bats has a cowl and cool cars.

The JLA has more sheer power hero to hero.

No, Cap has the strength and agility of one man.

Batman has a life time of training and experience.

Batman has a dozen weapons in his utility belt.

 

[Vanyel]

You can't only let one side use teamwork.

I only used examples of team work by the JLA because you brought up the idea of the Avengers using teamwork against the JLA.

There's this little thing called "teamwork". Iron Man fights smart, and would do what he could to aid his teammates, regardless of who he was personally fighting. You're also discounting "team ups, 'tag teaming", "triple/quadruple teaming" and "dog piling".

 

[Hermiod]

No, Cap has the strength and agility of one man.

True, it's just that that man who's strength he has is as strong as an ordinary human can be.

Batman has a life time of training and experience.

So does Cap, and he won't get tired putting it to use. Captain America is amongst the finest hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe.

Batman has a dozen weapons in his utility belt.

None of which are doing anything to Cap's shield.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, Cap has the strength and agility of one man.

True, it's just that that man who's strength he has is as strong as an ordinary human can be.

Batman has a life time of training and experience.

So does Cap, and he won't get tired putting it to use. Captain America is amongst the finest hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe..

Didn't say he's he's not. Just that using training and experience as a "trump card" doesn't work. I still find the never tires thing to be wonky. When did this addition occur again? Has it ever been used in a story since that introduction.

Batman has a dozen weapons in his utility belt.

None of which are doing anything to Cap's shield.

Depends on which one he uses. Batarangs, probably not. Gas pellets maybe.

Remember, I gave the advantage to Cap. But it won't be a cake walk.

 

[Hermiod]

Didn't say he's he's not. Just that using training and experience as a "trump card" doesn't work. I still find the never tires thing to be wonky. When did this addition occur again? Has it ever been used in a story since that introduction.

Cap has always had peak human stamina to go with his peak human everything else, regardless of any discussion about the lack of fatigue toxins in his muscles.

Batman, in that regard, is more akin to MVP - he's earned his body through hard work, but he's not perfect.

Depends on which one he uses. Batarangs, probably not. Gas pellets maybe.

It'd take a few of them to knock Cap down.

Remember, I gave the advantage to Cap. But it won't be a cake walk.

No, of course not.

I still say The Sentry is the game changer here. If he's focused and in the fight, the JLA loses and loses badly. Only Superman can challenge him and even then DC have nerfed Supes so badly and repeatedly that he wouldn't have much of a chance.

 

[TheArsenal]

The JLA would not let its members go solo. Let's look at Superman vs. Thor. WW with her powers from the Olympian gods could add a second punch against Thor. She is strong, near Superman's level, trained in multiple forms of combat with a high resistance to injury, her Lasso could be used to bind Thor, and as I understand it, it cannot be broken.

In Busiek's book, Superman only goes against Thor because that's the match up fans want to see. Tactically, you would hope he avoids the magic hammer wielding god and things run more along the lines you describe.

I still say The Sentry is the game changer here. If he's focused and in the fight, the JLA loses and loses badly. Only Superman can challenge him and even then DC have nerfed Supes so badly and repeatedly that he wouldn't have much of a chance.

I don't know much about the Sentry. I read the mini-series where they retconned him into the Marvel Universe as a "what if Marvel had a Superman?" kind of goof. I didn't realize until later he was there to stay. The JLA/Avengers book stuck with the "classic" line ups of both teams. But if DC is allowed to pull people off the bench, they currently have two Supermen (the older being more powerful), Captain Marvel, Powergirl, Supergirl and on occasion, Black Adam fighting on the right side. If Sentry is written to be more powerful than that combo - and he could be - he is laughably overpowered.

 

[Hermiod]

I'm going by the Avengers in 2008, not the classic line ups. Right now, the official Avengers team is Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, The Sentry, Wonder Man, Black Widow, Ares and The Wasp.

The JLA as I understand it is Batman, Black Canary, Black Lightning, Firestorm, Flash, two Green Lanterns (Jordan and Stewart), Hawkgirl, Red Arrow, Red Tornado, Superman, Wonder Woman and Zatanna. Batman's availablility is under question, of course.

There is not anyone on that team that is likely to be able to take on the Sentry. The last time I read anything DC published, Superman was getting blasted by Luthor's Injustice League and it actually affected him.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

The JLA would not let its members go solo. Let's look at Superman vs. Thor. WW with her powers from the Olympian gods could add a second punch against Thor. She is strong, near Superman's level, trained in multiple forms of combat with a high resistance to injury, her Lasso could be used to bind Thor, and as I understand it, it cannot be broken.

In Busiek's book, Superman only goes against Thor because that's the match up fans want to see. Tactically, you would hope he avoids the magic hammer wielding god and things run more along the lines you describe.

And what makes you think the Avengers would let Supes get away with it? Tactically, you fight a bruiser with a bruiser, unless you have a nemesis for that particular bruiser's powerset.

I still say The Sentry is the game changer here. If he's focused and in the fight, the JLA loses and loses badly. Only Superman can challenge him and even then DC have nerfed Supes so badly and repeatedly that he wouldn't have much of a chance.

I don't know much about the Sentry. I read the mini-series where they retconned him into the Marvel Universe as a "what if Marvel had a Superman?" kind of goof. I didn't realize until later he was there to stay. The JLA/Avengers book stuck with the "classic" line ups of both teams. But if DC is allowed to pull people off the bench, they currently have two Supermen (the older being more powerful), Captain Marvel, Powergirl, Supergirl and on occasion, Black Adam fighting on the right side. If Sentry is written to be more powerful than that combo - and he could be - he is laughably overpowered.

OK, "sauce for the goose" time: pull up Thor, Thor in the Destroyer Armor, Thor with Odinpower, and all the alternate Thors (Eric, Beta Ray Bill, etc).

One thing's for sure, whoever won it would be one HELL of a fight!

 

[Hermiod]

If we're pulling people off the bench here, technically Stark can call up anyone from the Initiative - including a certain member of the Thunderbolts with radiation control powers who I suspect would be able to generate Kryptonite radiation just as easily as anything else.

 

[JM1776]

I'm by no means convinced that a properly-written Thor doesn't handle the Sentry. He's certainly defeated more formidable foes.

 

[matthunter]

The Sentry is best defeated via psychological means rather than brute force, anyway. The JLA has access to enough teeps to screw with Bob's head.