The Undiscovered Country apocryphal?

[crouteru]

I've just watched TUC and read that Roddenberry said he considered parts of the film apocryphal. Which parts did he mean specifically? I thought the film was great and an important entry into Star Trek canon.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I've just watched TUC and read that Roddenberry said he considered parts of the film apocryphal. Which parts did he mean specifically? I thought the film was great and an important entry into Star Trek canon.

A vey frail GR lapsed into a coma, and eventually died, not long after seeing the final version of ST VI in Paramount's theatrette, so his only comment on record from that screening is: "I think the fans will like it".

However, GR had made objections to the script of ST VI before it started production. Contractually, he had to be able to read it, and to write memos, but no one had to listen to him. He felt there was too much violence and too much hatred from Kirk towards Klingons. He also wrote a memo to Nick Meyer saying that Saavik shouldn't be the traitor, because she become a beloved character, a favourite of the fans. On the DVD CE commentary, Meyer remembers how GR had originally fought him to have Saavik removed from ST II, and now GR was trying to "save" her!

GR declared parts of ST V as "apocryphal", so many have tried to attribute the same term to ST VI.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

As Therin notes, Roddenberry passed away within a few days of seeing a rough cut of Star Trek VI. This had led to bizarre beliefs, like one held by a friend of mine, that the film "killed him." To which I could only bury my face in my hands and let loose with a wail.

 

[Cyke101]

There are some schools of thought that say Roddenberry wasn't happy with the idea of corrupt Starfleet admirals acting under their own accord. Keep in mind that VI was released at the same time as much of TNG, where the future was utopian and the only conspiracies we saw were due to outside influence.

 

[CorporalClegg]

If that's the case, then he's probably going to decompose all over again come May.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Well, maybe his ashes will decompose.

I know, I'm ruining your punchline with my facts.

 

[Nebusj]

As Therin notes, Roddenberry passed away within a few days of seeing a rough cut of Star Trek VI. This had led to bizarre beliefs, like one held by a friend of mine, that the film "killed him." To which I could only bury my face in my hands and let loose with a wail.

See, my friends were just joking about, ``Boy, I hope dying wasn't his review of the movie''.

I believe what Roddenberry considered apocryphal was how nobody making it had to listen to him.

(I would also think it conceivable that he, or Richard Arnold, knew that if the movie flopped it'd be handy to have something on record saying He Would Have Done It Differently, and if it were a brilliant success nobody would remember the vague warnings. I don't have any reason beyond modest cynicism to believe this happened, however.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

if it were a brilliant success nobody would remember the vague warnings. I don't have any reason beyond modest cynicism to believe this happened, however.)

GR and Majel regularly wrote memos to all the ST clubs who had them on their mailing lists. My club received GR missives about each film while they were in production, and he often reminded fans that if he really thought a ST movie was a problem, he'd have his credit removed as a "sign" to the fans. I don't recall if he sent a ST VI memo; he may have been too ill.

Even though he originally objected to the death of Spock in ST II (and Kirk phasering a Ceti eel instead of having it studied), and was very vocal about it leading up to the film's release, GR did allow his screen credit to be used and, of course, he was oddly silent about his previous complaints when ST II was a big hit with fans and the general public.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

GR and Majel regularly wrote memos to all the ST clubs who had them on their mailing lists. My club received GR missives about each film while they were in production, and he often reminded fans that if he really thought a ST movie was a problem, he'd have his credit removed as a "sign" to the fans. I don't recall if he sent a ST VI memo; he may have been too ill.

David Alexander's biography said that Roddenberry only decided near the end to allow his credit on Star Trek VI. Obviously, Star Trek Creator is not an impartial source, but given some of Roddenberry's issues with the production and his feeling that Meyer simply didn't care what Roddenberry thought (which he didn't), I think Alexander's reportage here is more likely than not to be true.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

I think Kirk's hatred towards the Klingons from Star Trek V and VI was not a good thing.

I mean Kruge's men did stab his son to death, but Kruge was a rogue loose-cannon and wasn't entirely acting on the orders from his Government.

Though truthfully, the Klingon Ambassador (in Trek 3) did justify what Kruge did (the part where Sarek said "you have the right to commit murder?")


CuttingEdge100

 

[Cyke101]

I think Kirk's hatred towards the Klingons from Star Trek V and VI was not a good thing.

I mean Kruge's men did stab his son to death, but Kruge was a rogue loose-cannon and wasn't entirely acting on the orders from his Government.

Though truthfully, the Klingon Ambassador (in Trek 3) did justify what Kruge did (the part where Sarek said "you have the right to commit murder?")


CuttingEdge100

I think, ultimately, when the whole of VI is taken into account, Kirk can be forgiven, since he basically embodied how humanity can overcome its own intolerant tendencies (ie, if Kirk hates the Klingons, so can we. If Kirk can get along with them, then so can we). Now, if it were Gorkon's daughter that was going to be assassinated and not the Federation President, then maybe that message would be clearer.

 

[Lord Garth]

Which parts did he mean specifically?

According to Star Trek Movie Memories Gene Roddenberry angrily phoned his lawyer and wanted 15 minutes of TUC's more militaristic aspects edited out of the film.

I'd say look at the parts that were the most militaristic and those are probably want he wanted edited out, plus -- I suspect -- the last portion of Spock's mind-meld with Valeris.

He also reportedly thought the Federation should be the ones pushing for peace instead of the Klingons. I think he was pissed the Klingons came off as looking better than the Federation.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I think Kirk's hatred towards the Klingons from Star Trek V and VI was not a good thing.

I mean Kruge's men did stab his son to death, but Kruge was a rogue loose-cannon and wasn't entirely acting on the orders from his Government.

Though truthfully, the Klingon Ambassador (in Trek 3) did justify what Kruge did (the part where Sarek said "you have the right to commit murder?")


CuttingEdge100

I think, ultimately, when the whole of VI is taken into account, Kirk can be forgiven, since he basically embodied how humanity can overcome its own intolerant tendencies (ie, if Kirk hates the Klingons, so can we. If Kirk can get along with them, then so can we). Now, if it were Gorkon's daughter that was going to be assassinated and not the Federation President, then maybe that message would be clearer.

Well it certainly the whole bigotry gave Kirk an arc, something to overcome in the course of the film. And, as you say, we the audience can also overcome through the vehicle of the Kirk character.

 

[Kirk1980]

Well, what I had heard was that GR was not only annoyed by Kirk's hatred but also by the hatred of the Klingons by...just about everyone else, if not the outright racist comments by Uhura and Scotty.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

It's interesting...Didn't Roddenberry think that his characters needed flaws? How many people talk about equality and being friends, but when that change begins to happen, that they're resistant and saying just what Kirk and the others said, or at least thinking it?

 

[Data Holmes]

It's interesting...Didn't Roddenberry think that his characters needed flaws? How many people talk about equality and being friends, but when that change begins to happen, that they're resistant and saying just what Kirk and the others said, or at least thinking it?

Which Roddenberry? GR circa 1960's, GR circa 1970's, or GR circa 1980's.

 

[Maurice]

According to Star Trek Movie Memories Gene Roddenberry angrily phoned his lawyer and wanted 15 minutes of TUC's more militaristic aspects edited out of the film.

Which, naturally, begs the question about how Shatner knew what was spoken between Roddenberry and his lawyer... wait, the answer is obvious: heresay.

 

[Lord Garth]

The reason why I used words like "reportedly" and "according to".

 

[Kirk1980]

Because I'm sure William Shatner would have no access to any source close enough to verify the story as true

Come on, he knows enough people to have likely got the story as close to the horse's mouth you can get without smelling fermented apples.

 

[Lord Garth]

True.

William Shatner --> Majel Barrett --> Gene Roddenberry