Section 31...

[Rush Limborg]

and that the justifications it has cited as as full of shit as the so-called legal reasonings produced by the Bush Administration to justify torturing enemy combatants.

Hey. Save it for The Neutral Zone, okay? Like I do.


Thanks for the info, though.

Two Starfleets, eh? Of course...there may be incentive for keeping the "United Earth" Starfleet for the Federation. Guess we'll just have to see how the ENT books turn out.

 

[Sci]

and that the justifications it has cited as as full of shit as the so-called legal reasonings produced by the Bush Administration to justify torturing enemy combatants.

Hey. Save it for The Neutral Zone, okay? Like I do.

Erm, no. I don't save criticism for human rights abuses for only one special forum. I don't care who the abusers are or if they happen to have significant domestic support.

Thanks for the info, though.

No prob.

Two Starfleets, eh? Of course...there may be incentive for keeping the "United Earth" Starfleet for the Federation. Guess we'll just have to see how the ENT books turn out.

Well, it's entirely plausible that the Federation Starfleet grew out of the UE Starfleet, along with growing out of the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan and Tellarite space forces. But it by definition has to be a new legal entity. Armed forces serve the state they are owned by. Now, we've seen plenty of examples of Starfleet ships in the 23rd and 24th Centuries being called "Federation starships." They can't be Federation starships if they're owned by United Earth, just like the aircraft carrier United States Ship Enterprise CVN-65 couldn't call itself a United States Ship if it was actually owned by and in the service of, say, the Massachusetts State Navy.

Besides, if we're bringing in the novels, the novel Articles of the Federation by Keith RA DeCandido established definitively that the Federation Starfleet is a separate legal entity from the United Earth Starfleet, one that was founded when the Federation was and that grew out of the UE Starfleet.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Erm, no. I don't save criticism for human rights abuses for only one special forum. I don't care who the abusers are or if they happen to have significant domestic support.

Understandable. Nonetheless, this is a Star Trek forum.

Under most circumstances, I'd be happy to bring up matters like that. However, as you are probably aware, every time I've done so here, I've had to pay, for "bringing up politics in a Star Trek forum."

There is, of course, a big debate on whether Club-Gitmo prisoners, POWs, and terrorists are entitled to the same rights granted U.S. Citizens. But as I said, this probably isn't the place for it.

Just thought I'd ensure that you don't go through the crap that I did....

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Um, star trek people. Stay on topic.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Um, star trek people. Stay on topic.

Gladly....

 

[Sci]

Erm, no. I don't save criticism for human rights abuses for only one special forum. I don't care who the abusers are or if they happen to have significant domestic support.

Understandable. Nonetheless, this is a Star Trek forum.

Under most circumstances, I'd be happy to bring up matters like that. However, as you are probably aware, every time I've done so here, I've had to pay, for "bringing up politics in a Star Trek forum."

No, I'm not particularly aware of your history. Can't really say I've paid that much attention to you or to Gen Trek.

 

[Rush Limborg]

No, I'm not particularly aware of your history. Can't really say I've paid that much attention to you or to Gen Trek.

It was in the Lit forum, actually.

Suffice it to say...things got pretty ugly between me and a couple left-leaning posters....

 

[Sheliak]

Who were the Tal Shiar in Ancient Rome?

The Praetorian Guard, perhaps?

Is there an historian in the house?

 

[Penta]

...Amateur one, so I'll ask Sheliak for clarification: Internal security or external intelligence gathering?

 

[Sheliak]

...Amateur one, so I'll ask Sheliak for clarification: Internal security or external intelligence gathering?

External Security, but if not just list them all.

 

[Penta]

That's the funny thing - the Romans didn't have an external intelligence service, as I understand it. Hired spies, yes. An intel service as we understand it, no.

 

[Sheliak]

That's the funny thing - the Romans didn't have an external intelligence service, as I understand it. Hired spies, yes. An intel service as we understand it, no.

Go back a little, try the Senate. You'll get it eventually.

 

[Penta]

I said I was an amateur.

 

[Sheliak]

I said I was an amateur.

Oh very well... Speculator

 

[Tuvok]

No mention of it.... because...

Spoiler: Section 31

Section 31 is a SECRET organization, duh!

Section 31 does not exist

It is a lie, spoken by madmen and miscreants.

It is not the movement in the corner of your eye, a whisper in your ear. Nor the knife between your ribs.

It is not a series of Agents dedicated to protecting the Federation from itself.

It is not composed of Agents, who will kill , betray , destroy in the name of Utopia.

It is not the smile in the dark , the slight of hand of fate nor the line that is never crossed.

And if you keep asking questions about Section 31 , nothing mysterious and sudden will happen to you.

 

[T'Cal]

"The Wounded" is one of my favorite episodes and Maxwell was clearly working alone with revenge as his motivation. I had hoped we would see him in DS9 as a member of the Maquis. Imagine Miles having to fight on the opposite side of his beloved commander. That could be some great story telling!

 

[The Wormhole]

"The Wounded" is one of my favorite episodes and Maxwell was clearly working alone with revenge as his motivation. I had hoped we would see him in DS9 as a member of the Maquis. Imagine Miles having to fight on the opposite side of his beloved commander. That could be some great story telling!

Since Maxwell was presumably doing prison time when the Maquis was formed, and it's doubtful he would would have been released before their downfall, I really don't see how that would have been possible. After all, I doubt a starship captain who launched unprovoked attacks against someone the Federation has a treaty with got out of prison within 3-6 years.

 

[Pavonis]

The Federation doesn't use prisons except to hold captured criminals prior to treatment. As far as criminal behavior goes, it's treated as a psychiatric disease, and prisoners are "patients", sentenced to rehabilitation therapy. It's likely that Maxwell was sentenced to therapy for 6+ months or so (the same sentence Garak received for attempting genocide against the Founders).

OK, so there are penal colonies, where Tom Paris was serving time, but it makes one wonder whether penal colonies are simply where people stay while they're being treated.

So it's possible that Maxwell would've been released long before the Maquis movement started, but would he have joined after his therapy?

 

[E-DUB]

I've often wondered if the destruction of a planet in the Ceti Alpha system just months after Kirk left Khan and his supermen there was mere coincidence or if Sec 31 had a hand in that.

 

[sonak]

section 31 is one of the sillier elements introduced into the Trekverse. They should have just been a part of Starfleet Intelligence-the "super-secret organization that doesn't officially exist" stuff belongs in bad spy novels.