Star Trek vs Wars: Robot Slavery?

[Sephiroth]

just being able to talk and interact does sentience not make, R2-D2 and IG-88 in wars-verse are considered "sentient" because they can disobey orders and act independantly

 

[V]

^^^

How so?

Slavery and racism are 2 forms of oppression rampant throughout history and still quite prevalent throughout the world?

These 2 issues are under-represented, and infact under the radar to most media consumers out there. The studio heads, producers, and writers know, but the only color that they really care about is "green" (greed).

not, it is blatantly off; topic; move it to another thread; if you keep posting about it in this thread it will be ignored, if you make a separate thread it will be replied to

 

[Good Will Riker]

^^^

Well noted, V.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

I always thought the notion that Data was "sentient" in Star Trek was preposterous. He was a computer cleverly programmed to behave in a sentient manner. There is no way to prove that he actually has any sort of consciousness.

He's a toaster. Star Wars actually treated droids far more realistically, treating them like the machines they are rather than wringing their hands and worrying about their "rights" like those horribly pretentious TNG episodes.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Kall me krazy, but I thought this would've been an interesting angle of the Star Wars universe to explore in the prequels.

Yeah, the Jedi faced off against a a droid separatist army, but what if it wasn't about separatists at all, but about a droid rebellion against their "organic" oppressors?

The only effective response to an enemy that can mass produce itself (i.e. droids) would be a human army that can mass produce itself (i.e. clones).

Of course, they'd all be manipulated in turn by Sidious.

 

[A Clockwork Lim]

I always thought the notion that Data was "sentient" in Star Trek was preposterous. He was a computer cleverly programmed to behave in a sentient manner. There is no way to prove that he actually has any sort of consciousness.

He's a toaster. Star Wars actually treated droids far more realistically, treating them like the machines they are rather than wringing their hands and worrying about their "rights" like those horribly pretentious TNG episodes.

To be fair, there's no way to conclusively prove that you or anyone/anything else is sentient.

 

[RoJoHen]

I always thought the notion that Data was "sentient" in Star Trek was preposterous. He was a computer cleverly programmed to behave in a sentient manner. There is no way to prove that he actually has any sort of consciousness.

He's a toaster. Star Wars actually treated droids far more realistically, treating them like the machines they are rather than wringing their hands and worrying about their "rights" like those horribly pretentious TNG episodes.

To be fair, there's no way to conclusively prove that you or anyone/anything else is sentient.

I would honestly argue that the emotion chip prevented Data from being sentient. If he were sentient, I feel like he would have been able to evolve and develop emotions on his own. Yes, he was "curious" and liked to mimic humanity, but that doesn't mean that his reactions were based on anything other than what his brain told him a human would probably do. He had no instinct.

 

[Aragorn]

If they learn to grow beyond their programming, doesn't that suggest being sentient?

It's also completely off topic.

But he's just playing is amazing race card to compare the similar plights of robots and Asians and their portrayals in media!

 

[RoJoHen]

So does that make Mr. Roboto, like...Jesus?

 

[Psylent1]

Keep in mind that most Droids are memory wiped to keep them from developing "Quirks" in their programing.

The thing that separates R2-D2 and IG88 from most others is that they have not been wiped in a very long time.

 

[Psion]

Kall me krazy, but I thought this would've been an interesting angle of the Star Wars universe to explore in the prequels.

Yeah, the Jedi faced off against a a droid separatist army, but what if it wasn't about separatists at all, but about a droid rebellion against their "organic" oppressors?

The only effective response to an enemy that can mass produce itself (i.e. droids) would be a human army that can mass produce itself (i.e. clones).

Of course, they'd all be manipulated in turn by Sidious.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda! This would have been a much more interesting approach than the muddle we actually got, Norrin. I've had similar thoughts ... it's logical in the face of droid prejudice evidenced in "A New Hope".

 

[Trekker4747]

Recall that Star Wars has "the force" an essence or being (or bacteria) that inhabits every living being, some more than others.

In Star Wars The Force is analogous to the Holy Spirit and characters in SW very much believe in it. Droids don't possess The Force, thus in SW character's view of the universe they are not "alive" or "truly sentient" no matter how much they may seem to be.

In Trek they've a much more secular and scientific view of the universe. Where life and sentience/sapience is a definition and set of observable criteria (among them intelligence and self-awareness of one's own ego) that characters like Data, Holodoc and the Exocomps all displayed. Thus under Trek's views of the universe they've a much more liberal view on what is and is not life and it's not just restricted to whether or not one may or may not have a soul as they don't recongise souls as part of their "science" ("We've all been dancing around the issue. Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I've got to give him the freedom to disover that on his own.")

So in Star Wars they've decided what "having a soul" or "having life" is and that's posessing The Force if even in the smallest measurable means. They can run a scanner or a bloodtest and see if someone has or has not "a soul" (The Force) and on that they base whether or not one is a sentient/sapient life and allowed the "freedoms" of life. Machines don't posess The Force. Thus they're not free, living, beings.

In Star Trek they're very, very open on what "life" is and what life is or is not sentient/sapient as they've no hard-cut definition or test that can be performed to make the determination and it's open for discussion, thought, observation, evaluation and so much more. They've not narrowed it down simply to "has the Force", "is biological", etc.

 

[zenophite]

To be fair, there's no way to conclusively prove that you or anyone/anything else is sentient.

while this may be true to some degree we each of us belong to a race that has been responsible for creative thought and that one that has not (so far as we know) been the creation of another race. Since we are the first and only measuring stick that we know then we take it on a measure of faith that we are all of us sentient.

This is not true of a created "race" of mechatronic "beings". I notice that many of the sorts of interactions that people post as interesting involve emotional responses displayed by these droids. It is well within the realm of possibility that, given a level of technology displayed by the star trek or star wars universes, these droids' reactions are the result of a rather complicated and elegantly designed set of non-sentient expert systems.

 

[Hermiod]

I always thought the notion that Data was "sentient" in Star Trek was preposterous. He was a computer cleverly programmed to behave in a sentient manner. There is no way to prove that he actually has any sort of consciousness.

As has been pointed out, you can't prove that you have any kind of conciousness.

Data repeatedly met the criteria for a sentient life-form that were presented to him and he proved his status in a court of law.

 

[A Clockwork Lim]

While I completely hated the whole midochlorian thing, where is it ever stated on-screen that they were the source of a Jedi's power? All we know is that powerful Jedi have unusually high midochlorian counts.

If it were simply a case of having midochlorians, all you'd need to do is inject yourself with massive amounts. Bam! Super Jedi. But, uh, no. On-screen it appeared to simply be a way to measure a Jedi's potential/strength.

It's sort of liking saying that because your skin turns tan after prolonged exposure to sunlight, obviously your skin is the source of sunlight. Pretty faulty assumption.

 

[captcalhoun]

i really hope GWR reads my book "Dave Danger: Space Pilot" and goes ape-shit crazy over some of the villains in it.

i will and then

 

[Manticore]

This is not true of a created "race" of mechatronic "beings". I notice that many of the sorts of interactions that people post as interesting involve emotional responses displayed by these droids. It is well within the realm of possibility that, given a level of technology displayed by the star trek or star wars universes, these droids' reactions are the result of a rather complicated and elegantly designed set of non-sentient expert systems.

Isn't that essentially what our reactions are: the result of a rather complicated (though perhaps not elegantly designed ) set of non-sentient systems, to wit, our nervous system and various glands spread around our body?

 

[Unicron]

I always thought the notion that Data was "sentient" in Star Trek was preposterous. He was a computer cleverly programmed to behave in a sentient manner. There is no way to prove that he actually has any sort of consciousness.

He's a toaster. Star Wars actually treated droids far more realistically, treating them like the machines they are rather than wringing their hands and worrying about their "rights" like those horribly pretentious TNG episodes.

One can make the same claim about organic life, as Picard did in "Measure of a Man." How do we know that we're not merely slaves to our biological programming?

I think the difference between an android like Data and a droid in Star Wars is that droids have varying intelligence. They were built to be tools, and only a relatively small number have ever had the capacity to exceed their designed programming (or even rarer, have had adaptive programming from the start like IG-88). Data, OTOH, was always intended to develop sentience.

While I completely hated the whole midochlorian thing, where is it ever stated on-screen that they were the source of a Jedi's power? All we know is that powerful Jedi have unusually high midochlorian counts.

No, nothing was said about them being the source of Force sensitivity. All that was said was that they're living cells, and those who do have Force sensitivity tend to have higher numbers of them - particularly in individuals like Yoda. In that respect, they're no different than the gene in B5 that gives individuals telepathy.

 

[Shawnster]

In Star Wars The Force is analogous to the Holy Spirit ...

Hmm... Might be analogous, but I think it's a poor or incomplete analog. I don't know anyone that feels Holy Spirit enables them to be superior combatants or provides telekinetic abilities. And you also have the thinking of people from non-"Christian" lands that don't believe in/follow the concept of Holy Spirit and instead follow/embrace a similar, yet different concept. Now, if you want to broaden the analog to include all forms of mysticism such as Karma, etc... then I would think you were on to something.

So maybe in Star Wars the question of sentience breaks down to one of spirituality?

 

[Klagg]

I agree that driods in Star Wars represent slaves since they have memory wipes and restraining bolts. Watch this speech by Robert J Sawyer about the history of sci-fi and the treatment of Driods in the Star Wars universe.

http://sfwriter.com/2008/06/video-galaxy-far-far-away-my-ass.html