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"Fringe"; why all the crap science?

Biggshow

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
So as much as I like "Fringe", I really have to divorce my fun-seeking brain from the part that insists that the laws of physics and natural sciences apply to this show. As the Joshua Jackson character rightly says in the pilot, this is all "Pseudoscience", meaning false science. None of the "science" that is central to the plots of the existing episodes has any basis in current theory and many of it has been debunked.

And yet it all works in the universe of this show.

Sigh.

I worry that science education will suffer for it.

OTOH, it's just a TV show. Dilemma.
 
Just tell yourself that the Fringe universe takes place in a mirror universe where all the scientists are dumb.
 
I worry that science education will suffer for it.

OTOH, it's just a TV show. Dilemma.

It's just a Tv show as you say, there is no dilemma here.

One should not look for science education in fictional tv shows. Schools, colleges, books or if you want, tv documentaries are the source for that.

I'm sorry but I don't see how science education could suffer because of Fringe.
 
One should not look for science education in fictional tv shows. Schools, colleges, books or if you want, tv documentaries are the source for that.

Actually, prose science fiction is often a great source of entertaining science education. There's a generations-long symbiotic relationship between SF and real science, with each inspiring the other. I learned a great deal about the universe from reading hard SF, and I try to make my own SF educational as well. It is entirely possible to be entertaining and informative at the same time. No, TV shows don't have to be informative, but there's no reason why they can't be either, and it would be nice if some of them would at least make the effort. Heck, CBS's Numb3rs has done a good job for several seasons incorporating real mathematical principles into their stories. They don't just make up imaginary math; they have consultants who make sure their portrayal of mathematical principles is reasonably accurate. Why can't a show based in science do the same?

I think it's a tragedy that mass-media SF squanders this great opportunity to be informative, to have that kind of close, mutually beneficial relationship with real science that prose SF has, and instead settles for a constant stream of misinformation and gobbledegook. Especially since the American public is profoundly illiterate in the sciences compared to most countries, and could use all the help it could get in learning a thing or two about how the universe works.

The sad thing about Fringe is that it comes so close. Its core premise, that science is advancing so rapidly today that it's impossible for human beings to control or understand anymore, is very close to the concept of the technological Singularity that's been around in prose SF and futurist philosophy for a couple of decades now. There's a whole literature of ideas that the show could draw on for inspiration, wildly imaginative ideas grounded in real-world possibilities, and instead they're falling back on random gibberish and hackneyed pseudoscience. It's a failure of imagination as well as education.
 
I agree that it's good to have entertainment that inspires one to go and learn science (or history, or whatever). But if you're learning your science directly from watching Fringe, or Star Trek; or you're learning your history from watching F Troop or you're learning the law from watching Boston Legal: YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET!
 
Ya it doesn't bother me...it's just a tv show and I like to be entertained, not taught about science. If I want facts, I'll read it/watch a documentary, etc.
 
I agree that it's good to have entertainment that inspires one to go and learn science (or history, or whatever). But if you're learning your science directly from watching Fringe, or Star Trek; or you're learning your history from watching F Troop or you're learning the law from watching Boston Legal: YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET!

Yes, that's exactly the point. Good educational entertainment doesn't do the job on its own, but it works with nonfictional educational material; it gives audiences enough grounding in the basics, and in a scientific way of looking at the world, that it inspires them to seek out further information. That's how I've always approached it. As I said, plenty of prose SF has taught me a lot about science, because it pointed me in the right direction to find out more information on my own from nonfictional sources. It's the same with a work of historical fiction that's well-grounded in real historical research, or with a courtroom drama that's well-grounded in real legal practice (like early Law & Order) rather than melodramatic gibberish (like current L&O). The problem with shows that just don't even try, that make up random nonsense and pass it off as science or history or law, is that they point in the wrong direction. They don't complement learning, they undermine it. They perpetuate this myth I'm hearing from posters in this thread that learning has to be some stuffy thing diametrically opposed to entertainment. That's nonsense. The best learning is the kind that keeps you interested. And good stories can be enriching and enlightening as well as entertaining. Learning shouldn't be seen as some segregated process that you only engage in at certain times. We're learning things every minute of every day. All of life is a learning process. It's just a question of whether what we're learning is meaningful or truthful.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with pure fantasy fluff. But the point I'm trying to make, the point that others seem to be overlooking, is that not all fiction has to be that way. There is fiction out there that takes the care to get its research right and is therefore a useful tool for learning. It's not just some pie-in-the-sky wish; it really exists. It's just that virtually none of it exists on television or in film, because there's an institutionalized lack of interest in trying. Because the powers that be embrace the same cavalier, why-bother attitude I'm hearing in this thread.

And to me, speaking as a professional storyteller, it just seems lazy. Part of conscientious storytelling is doing the work. Doing the research it takes to get the specifics right. If you're going to write a story set in Paris, you don't make up random geography and architecture and culture and language. You get books on Paris, or research it on websites, or go there yourself and learn about it. And it should be the same with science or astronomy -- you do the work to get the details right. Because even though many of your readers or viewers won't care, there are those who will; and even if the audience can't tell the difference, it adds subliminally to the realism and texture of your story if you do the work to get the details right. Slacking on the details is failing to do your job to the fullest. Sure, there's value in poetic license, but at least you should know what the reality is before you choose to bend it.
 
every promo i have seen of this show has just left me saying it looks like bullshit and not really interesting
 
I never really thought this show would have any real science of anything. Then agian, I find science boring usually which is why the sci-fi I like is usually light on the science.
 
Uhm. The entire premise of the show is the fact that it revolves around Mad Scientists practicing "science" that has been debunked/written off/proven wrong. Seriously. That's the premise of the show.

So why, then, get your feathers ruffled at them for making the show about the very thing it's supposed to be about?

The mind boggles.
 
I have heard that it is the Hottest new show on TV...I cant remember where to. But it must be if I keep being told so...
 
Well, if fringe science is supposed to be the premise of the show, they should have spent some time making the fringe science creative. LSD and sensory deprivation having fantastic results was bad science in the Sixties and Seventies. But it was at least imaginative. Also, not everyone knew it was bad science. Now, decades of people tripping and floating mean everyone knows it is ignorant hokum. That is just bad writing, not just bad science. They might as well make an episode where John Noble whips up a laser pointer that can control minds.

Most of us want to enjoy a story. Give us a scrap of logic to pacify our disbelief.
 
Uhm. The entire premise of the show is the fact that it revolves around Mad Scientists practicing "science" that has been debunked/written off/proven wrong. Seriously. That's the premise of the show.

So why, then, get your feathers ruffled at them for making the show about the very thing it's supposed to be about?

The mind boggles.

I think we all expected the show to deal with fringe cases, but we didn't expect to see characters saving the day with a bunch of magical scifi technology straight out of VOY.

It would be like if Scully, at the end of every episode of The X-Files, drempt up some magical cure for every mutant creature her and Mulder came across. The show would have lost all credibility.

The fact these solutions on Fringe are just thrown together at the last possible second and all work perfectly just makes it even more ridiculous.
 
I never really thought this show would have any real science of anything. Then agian, I find science boring usually which is why the sci-fi I like is usually light on the science.

See, that's the sad thing. Hard SF, scientifically accurate SF, is a great way to expose people to scientific concepts in an entertaining way -- a way to make science not boring. And if some viewers don't care about the science, that's fine; they can just dismiss it as technobabble and enjoy the story. But those of us who do like science in our fiction will be satisfied as well, and those whose minds are open and curious can learn something even as they're entertained. It's not a zero-sum game. It's not like the only way to satisfy one segment of the audience is to deprive the others. A story that includes plausible science in a smooth, unobtrusive way can satisfy everyone.


Uhm. The entire premise of the show is the fact that it revolves around Mad Scientists practicing "science" that has been debunked/written off/proven wrong. Seriously. That's the premise of the show.

So why, then, get your feathers ruffled at them for making the show about the very thing it's supposed to be about?

No, that's not the premise of the show. The premise, as explicitly stated by characters in the show, is that they're dealing with science that is so advanced and progressing so rapidly that it's no longer possible to comprehend or control. There hasn't been one word said about the ideas being debunked or proven wrong; hell, obviously they haven't been proven wrong, because within the context of the show, they clearly work. Rather, they're ideas that have been abandoned or covered up by the establishment because they were too dangerous or controversial.

And as I've said, what's disappointing is that they could've done essentially the same show if they'd grounded it in the realistic concept of the Singularity, if they'd consulted with the futurists and scientists and authors who have been writing about the Singularity for decades now. They still could've made a show about technology running frighteningly out of control; the characters and drama and danger would've been the same; only the technical specifics would be different. But it would be grounded in ideas that actually make sense and would inform the public about a very real possibility for what the future may hold.

The power of science fiction, what makes it such a remarkable and important genre, is that it can actually anticipate future trends. It can't predict discoveries in exact detail, but it has often been on the right track, has often explored issues that real people have needed to contend with decades later. SF writers predicted the nuclear arms race before the first nuclear weapon had ever been detonated; they got the details of the technology wrong, but they anticipated the political dynamic and the moral quandary. Today, we face many difficult ethical questions about the possibility of human cloning and genetic engineering, but SF has been exploring those questions in depth for over three decades. SF can give us a headstart on figuring out issues that could genuinely affect our lives or our children's lives. That's potentially an immensely powerful tool. So it's a waste that most mass-media SF is content to be meaningless fluff. As I said, meaningless fluff is fine occasionally, but there's an opportunity to achieve so much more, and that opportunity is being squandered.

And just from the standpoint of personal taste... I didn't want another X-Files. I didn't particularly like The X-Files. The writing was occasionally entertaining, but the premise was a pathetic joke. So I would've rather seen a show that wasn't just The X-Files with the labels changed, but that had a substantive difference in approach.
 
The power of science fiction, what makes it such a remarkable and important genre, is that it can actually anticipate future trends. It can't predict discoveries in exact detail, but it has often been on the right track, has often explored issues that real people have needed to contend with decades later. SF writers predicted the nuclear arms race before the first nuclear weapon had ever been detonated; they got the details of the technology wrong, but they anticipated the political dynamic and the moral quandary. Today, we face many difficult ethical questions about the possibility of human cloning and genetic engineering, but SF has been exploring those questions in depth for over three decades. SF can give us a headstart on figuring out issues that could genuinely affect our lives or our children's lives. That's potentially an immensely powerful tool. So it's a waste that most mass-media SF is content to be meaningless fluff. As I said, meaningless fluff is fine occasionally, but there's an opportunity to achieve so much more, and that opportunity is being squandered.

Do you honsestly believe there's a network that allow such a show let alone understand it and that's notto mention the general public?
 
I never really thought this show would have any real science of anything. Then agian, I find science boring usually which is why the sci-fi I like is usually light on the science.

See, that's the sad thing. Hard SF, scientifically accurate SF, is a great way to expose people to scientific concepts in an entertaining way -- a way to make science not boring. And if some viewers don't care about the science, that's fine; they can just dismiss it as technobabble and enjoy the story. But those of us who do like science in our fiction will be satisfied as well, and those whose minds are open and curious can learn something even as they're entertained. It's not a zero-sum game. It's not like the only way to satisfy one segment of the audience is to deprive the others. A story that includes plausible science in a smooth, unobtrusive way can satisfy everyone.

I agree, depending on the show. For instnace, there's really no need for science on BSG but if the science was sound on Fringe then it would fit in. However, I'm saying that since I don't really care about that it doesn't bother me at all. I've never been much interested in hard science, especially when it is all the show is about, so for me Fringe works. If they managed to work actual science in and not have it be obtrusive that's good, too.
 
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