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What would a dyson sphere look like . . .

hmm. I see grey circle with a blue ring around the outer edge.

I'd post images to this site but, 1, i don't know how and 2 i am afraid of breaking some rule or some other.

whatnot with all the rules. Maybe you should create a new thread for this
creation, describe it, and give us a top, side, and front view. Then i can go to autocad and zip up a 3 d model fer ya.

:)

1. what are the dimensions?
2. How do we get gravity?
3. And etc? I mean- grey frisbee?
 
well, thats more detail, tho we failed to get a new thread. 1.5 Au?

Back at problem number 1. Such an object would collapse under its own
gravity, and in this case, have such intense gravity that people would be turned into a puddle of goo.

What if we just micronized your idea so that it was only a few hundred miles
in diameter, and made the blue ring a rotating ring such that inside of it
theres centripetally generated pseudo gravity?

I'm sorry, but alien civilization or no, nobody builds something 1 AU across
when as soon as the warp bubble fails it crumples into itself and rips apart
and kills everybody.

??
 
The one thing that bugs me, though, is that the gyroscope effect would keep the Orbital's axis pointing in the same direction as it circled the star, so the position of the star in its sky would change throughout the year, and twice a year, the sunward side of the Orbital would totally eclipse the star, possibly for days at a time. I don't think Banks ever addressed this. Perhaps his Orbitals use thrusters to precess their axes, but that would expend a hell of a lot of power.

Somehow I don't think the Culture would have any problem given the near infinite energy source of the Grid and the other magictech they have. Given how they can equip Orbitals for interstellar travel given time, this seems like small beans.
 
Guess it depends on who was building them, and in what configuration.


For example, in the SFU, the Tholians built Dyson Spheres back in their home galaxy of M81 - ransacking the resources of said galaxy in the process - but said spheres were not all that big, relying on an artificially-generated mini-star at its core for power, and holding between 5-10 billion Tholians at a go.

HeartoftheHoldfast.jpg


Of course, with the atmospheric requirements of Tholians, few other species could bear living on one...


Oh, and the construction of these Spheres depended heavily on the use of web - and while this was fine so long as the Tholians were in control of their empire, it wasn't quite so good when their most-favoured slaves, the Seltorians, figured out how to disrupt webs, mount these web breakers on their massive factory ships, and thus manage to commit mass xenocide, ten billion Tholians at a time.
 
I think you missed the most fundamental problem with a dyson sphere and why its actually impossible to build one out of normal matter.

GRAVITY.

I mean, this is all an interesting thought experiment, but lets get real?

The tension gravity along the curved surface would be thousands of
times more than the gravity pulling you down to the surface.

For a solid shell, that's probably true, although as I said above, I suspect a light enough one could be literally "inflated" by the pressure of the stellar wind.

More realistically, the inward gravitational attraction of something like a Ringworld or Orbital would be cancelled by the centrifugal effect of its rotation. That would require a material of immense tensile strength, but with future materials science, that's quite possible. Just 30 years ago, nobody imagined we'd have something as strong as carbon nanotubes on the verge of practical use today.


The only scientifically accurate way to do it is to use some form of exotic matter which doesn't have gravity, or to in some manner use gravitational holomorphics similar to warp fields to cancel it out.

Kind of odd to use "scientifically accurate" and follow it up with two totally imaginary suggestions.

Otherwise, your ribbon snaps and crumples into itself

Again, not if it's rotating.

If you took the earth and turned it into a dyson sphere it would be thinner than paper.

No one has ever proposed that a Dyson Sphere of 1 AU radius would be made of such a paltry amount of mass as that. The usual assumption is that the entire Solar System would have to be dismantled.

Just for fun, though, let's do the math. The Earth has a volume of 1.08x10^12 km^3. A sphere of 1 AU (1.496x10^8 km) would have a surface area of 2.81x10^17 km^2. To have the equivalent volume of the Earth (assuming the material was of the same average density once converted), it would need to have a thickness of 3.8 millimeters. That's actually the equivalent of roughly 35 sheets of 20-lb printer paper. So not quite as thin as that, not unless it's far, far denser than the Earth.
 
For a solid shell, that's probably true, although as I said above, I suspect a light enough one could be literally "inflated" by the pressure of the stellar wind.
Thats an interesting idea, but even a paper thin construct would have a gravity along its circumference in the dozens of Gs.

More realistically, the inward gravitational attraction of something like a Ringworld or Orbital would be cancelled by the centrifugal effect of its rotation. That would require a material of immense tensile strength, but with future materials science, that's quite possible. Just 30 years ago, nobody imagined we'd have something as strong as carbon nanotubes on the verge of practical use today.
Thats true but irrelevant to the problem of gravity as it occurs along the circumference of the object.
Kind of odd to use "scientifically accurate" and follow it up with two totally imaginary suggestions.
Theoretical science is not entirely imaginary.
Again, not if it's rotating.
again, that only deal with the inward gravity, not gravitometric stresses along the circumference.
No one has ever proposed that a Dyson Sphere of 1 AU radius would be made of such a paltry amount of mass as that.
Other than the poster above.



The usual assumption is that the entire Solar System would have to be dismantled.

All the mass in our solar system would still only render a sphere a few inches thick at most. (disincluding the sun.)


Just for fun, though, let's do the math. The Earth has a volume of 1.08x10^12 km^3. A sphere of 1 AU (1.496x10^8 km) would have a surface area of 2.81x10^17 km^2. To have the equivalent volume of the Earth (assuming the material was of the same average density once converted), it would need to have a thickness of 3.8 millimeters. That's actually the equivalent of roughly 35 sheets of 20-lb printer paper. So not quite as thin as that, not unless it's far, far denser than the Earth.

Interesting. Judges? I hate math.
 
For a solid shell, that's probably true, although as I said above, I suspect a light enough one could be literally "inflated" by the pressure of the stellar wind.
Thats an interesting idea, but even a paper thin construct would have a gravity along its circumference in the dozens of Gs.

As I stated above, the gravity felt by anyone inside the Dyson shell would be zero, since the pull in all directions would cancel out. Such an observer would feel only the gravity of the star inside. And someone outside the DS would feel the gravity of the star plus the DS itself, which would be negligibly greater than the gravity of the star alone. So you're stating this incorrectly. What you're referring to isn't the gravity an observer would feel, but the tendency of the total system's gravity to pull the DS in on itself and cause it to collapse toward its center. Or, on a smaller scale, the structural strain that effect would induce on the material of the DS, overwhelming its structural integrity.

More realistically, the inward gravitational attraction of something like a Ringworld or Orbital would be cancelled by the centrifugal effect of its rotation. That would require a material of immense tensile strength, but with future materials science, that's quite possible. Just 30 years ago, nobody imagined we'd have something as strong as carbon nanotubes on the verge of practical use today.
Thats true but irrelevant to the problem of gravity as it occurs along the circumference of the object.

That is completely incorrect. A rotating body will feel a centrifugal effect throughout its volume, getting stronger the farther it is from the center of rotation. Only the center itself will feel no force as a result of the rotation. And if we're talking about a rotating ring or open-ended cylinder, then all the mass is at or near the circumference and would feel pretty close to the maximum centrifugal effect.

You have a lot of curiosity about these subjects, but it seems you haven't read a lot of the existing literature and are just speculating in a vacuum. I recommend doing more research on these types of megastructures. For instance, here's a good page about the physics of the Ringworld and other Larry Niven creations:

http://www.larryniven.org/physics.shtml

Here's a FAQ about Dyson spheres:

http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~asa/dysonFAQ.html


Theoretical science is not entirely imaginary.

I'm well-versed in theoretical physics, thanks, but "some form of exotic matter which doesn't have gravity, or... gravitational holomorphics similar to warp fields" is just making stuff up. Theoretical science doesn't mean pulling technobabble out of thin air, it means constructing testable mathematical models based on existing knowledge.

The usual assumption is that the entire Solar System would have to be dismantled.

All the mass in our solar system would still only render a sphere a few inches thick at most. (disincluding the sun.)

You admit below that you haven't bothered to do the math. It's inappropriate to state this as though it were a fact when you haven't even done the computations to find out. Science isn't about guesswork. On the contrary, it's about questioning and testing your own assumptions.

Let's do it this way: the four giant planets contain 99% of the non-Solar mass of the system. Their masses add up to 444 Earth masses. Let's assume that's all converted to Dyson shell material of the same density assumed before, equal to the average density of the Earth. That means the volume would be 444 times greater, and since the surface area is the same, we can simplify that by just multiplying the thickness by 444 (since the thickness is still insignificant compared to the radius). 3.8 millimeters times 444 is 1.7 meters, or 5 feet 7 inches. At least this time you're off by only one order of magnitude instead of two.
 
You admit below that you haven't bothered to do the math.
Its not a matter of bothering. I have a verbal linguistic IQ of 180 and a mathematical IQ of 90.

It's inappropriate to state this as though it were a fact when you haven't even done the computations to find out. Science isn't about guesswork. On the contrary, it's about questioning and testing your own assumptions.
I don't do guesswork, I do lucid visualization. Thats similar to guesswork and its also similar to math.


Let's do it this way: the four giant planets contain 99% of the non-Solar mass of the system. Their masses add up to 444 Earth masses. Let's assume that's all converted to Dyson shell material of the same density assumed before, equal to the average density of the Earth. That means the volume would be 444 times greater, and since the surface area is the same, we can simplify that by just multiplying the thickness by 444 (since the thickness is still insignificant compared to the radius). 3.8 millimeters times 444 is 1.7 meters, or 5 feet 7 inches. At least this time you're off by only one order of magnitude instead of two.
okay if you say so, but I'd like a second opinion.

You have a lot of curiosity about these subjects, but it seems you haven't read a lot of the existing literature and are just speculating in a vacuum. I recommend doing more research on these types of megastructures. For instance, here's a good page about the physics of the Ringworld and other Larry Niven creations:
okay, i am doing research now.

okay. i was wrong.

i don't see how that can be. But i guess the gravity all self cancels. Which seems impossible.:alienblush::confused:
 
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One of the great things about a curved surface is that it can withstand monumental stress. Navel ships for example have the rounded edges around doors, and that is for one reason only. They handle the stress of a constantly moving, constantly twisting ship better then square corner doors. I can imagine that a Dyson Ring or Sphere could handle it in much the same way. Now this question has already been answered I'm guessing, but I wanted to offer my opinion on it. About the night and day, I would envision a smaller ring, or set of rings that block out sections of sunlight. With an area the size of the Dyson Sphere, its about the only way I can see day and night NOT being equivalent to several earth standard weeks.

EDIT: Another thought. Someone said doing the night and day thing would be wasteful. Not really. The inner surface of the "Night Grid" could collect the solar energy and shunt it towards the two axis of the sphere. You're only real concern from what I can see is things coming at you from outside the sphere, asteroids, comets, or even a rouge planet that got knocked out of a distant system and made its way there.
 
I don't think the gravity of a Dyson Sphere the even the size of the one in Relics would be enough to crush itself. According to my calculations, the mass of that Dyson Sphere would be about 1/3rd the mass of the sun if it had a 1KM thickness. However, outside of the sphere, the acceleration due to gravity would still be only about .018 m/s/s due to both the sphere and the sun. The large diameter of the object greatly diminishes the gravity imposed on it.
 
One thing I do wonder is how non-Newtonian gravitational effects will stress the Dyson Sphere. Such as frame dragging of the Sun or even the Sphere itself.
 
One of the great things about a curved surface is that it can withstand monumental stress. Navel ships for example have the rounded edges around doors, and that is for one reason only. They handle the stress of a constantly moving, constantly twisting ship better then square corner doors. I can imagine that a Dyson Ring or Sphere could handle it in much the same way. Now this question has already been answered I'm guessing, but I wanted to offer my opinion on it. About the night and day, I would envision a smaller ring, or set of rings that block out sections of sunlight. With an area the size of the Dyson Sphere, its about the only way I can see day and night NOT being equivalent to several earth standard weeks.

EDIT: Another thought. Someone said doing the night and day thing would be wasteful. Not really. The inner surface of the "Night Grid" could collect the solar energy and shunt it towards the two axis of the sphere. You're only real concern from what I can see is things coming at you from outside the sphere, asteroids, comets, or even a rouge planet that got knocked out of a distant system and made its way there.

Larry Niven's way ahead of you mate.

Anyways, in the Star Trek universe, any civilization advanced enough to survive long enough to build something as momentous as a big darned shell (Which makes the Death Star look like a cufflink), they would for sure have advanced technology, like I dunno... Warp fields, gravity maniupulation, subspace doohickeys that do whatever the plot wants etc.
 
One thing I do wonder is how non-Newtonian gravitational effects will stress the Dyson Sphere. Such as frame dragging of the Sun or even the Sphere itself.

I think frame dragging would be inconsequential for bodies of that mass.


One of the great things about a curved surface is that it can withstand monumental stress. Navel ships for example have the rounded edges around doors, and that is for one reason only. They handle the stress of a constantly moving, constantly twisting ship better then square corner doors. I can imagine that a Dyson Ring or Sphere could handle it in much the same way.

Hmm, that's possible. I hadn't thought of that. Dynamically speaking, a Dyson shell is essentially two hemispheric domes base to base, and a dome is a very strong and stable structure. Any inward force gets directed along the curve. So essentially the whole mass of the DS would be "holding itself up" against the force of its own gravity pulling it together.

That wouldn't go for a Ringworld, though, since that's a structure under tension (because of the rotation), not compression. Take away the spin and it's more fragile. Any distortion in its shape would probably cause it to flatten out even further until it broke apart.


Anyways, in the Star Trek universe, any civilization advanced enough to survive long enough to build something as momentous as a big darned shell (Which makes the Death Star look like a cufflink), they would for sure have advanced technology, like I dunno... Warp fields, gravity maniupulation, subspace doohickeys that do whatever the plot wants etc.

Which is the problem with having a Dyson shell in the Trek universe: why bother? Why go to the trouble of converting a star system into a giant artificial habitat when you can just travel to other planets if you need more living space?
 
In both cases, the argument has been made that it might be intended primarily as a fortress for an isolationist culture, in Niven's case for a twofold reason: one, it will protect the culture from a big disaster, and two, it will protect the culture from the riffraff that will be fleeing said disaster.

Perhaps the builders of the TNG sphere know something about our galaxy that Federation science does not? Perhaps what's happening at Andromeda right now, in the Trek universe, is inevitable in the Trek Milky Way as well?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Christopher, I have a question that popped into my not-so-scientific brain while recently rereading Ringworld.

If "gravity" is generated by spin, as in the Ringworld or an O'Neil colony like Babylon 5, is something in the air, such as an aircraft, affected? My brian is telling me that you're only held to the surface by the spin, but once you've separated from the surface you're no longer affected by the spin.

Or is it that the air itself is being held down by the spin, and, being in that envelope of air, so is the flying object? Would that then mean that if the habitat contained a vacuum, a floating object would not be affected by the "gravity?"

These annoying thoughts were also sparked by that 2nd season episode of Babylon 5 where Sheridan bailed out of the core shuttle at the center of rotation, and Ivanova said "He's essentially weightless, but the ground is spinning at 60 MPH and when he hits it..."
 
Yes, the air there is the key. An aircraft, be it a plane or a balloon, would be caught in the air that rushes around the star, and would thus being to experience the same centripetal force that is experienced by objects that directly touch the surface that also rushes around the star. It would not matter much whether the force was relayed to you through your feet, or through a bit of air, a pair of aircraft wings, an aircraft floor and then your feet.

If you flew "up" high enough in Ringworld, you'd get outside that part of the atmosphere that can drag you along, and you would become weightless in the sense that pure orbital mechanics would determine your course from then on. But probably you'd actually start falling back towards the ring as your velocity would be much more than the orbital velocity required at 1 AU distance (Earth orbits at 30 km/s or once per 365 days, Ringworld would rotate at 1,200 km/s or once per only nine days to generate 1 gee). You'd need heavy duty rockets to slow down enough to clear the ring...

Babylon 5 would be a bit different because, due to its small size, it would be completely filled with 1 atm air. Thus, the drag of air would start affecting Sheridan almost from the get-go, slightly helping him in matching the tangential velocity of the surface to alleviate his road rash, but unfortunately in the process also giving his velocity an additional radial component that would smack him against said surface at a greater "vertical" speed than the one at which he jumped off the axis lift.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If "gravity" is generated by spin, as in the Ringworld or an O'Neil colony like Babylon 5, is something in the air, such as an aircraft, affected? My brian is telling me that you're only held to the surface by the spin, but once you've separated from the surface you're no longer affected by the spin.

Or is it that the air itself is being held down by the spin, and, being in that envelope of air, so is the flying object? Would that then mean that if the habitat contained a vacuum, a floating object would not be affected by the "gravity?"

That's essentially correct. It also depends on how the flying object is moving. Let's look at a couple of situations:

1) You're hanging from a high ledge on a building in an O'Neill cylinder. You lose your grip and fall. What happens?

While you're hanging, you're following a circular path around the center. Let go, and it's like cutting the cord on a whirling tetherball -- suddenly you're travelling in a straight line, tangent to the previous circle. This takes you outward, your momentum carrying you toward the perimeter of the cylinder, which brings you closer to the "ground." Basically you're flying sideways, but the ground curves up to meet you. To an observer within the rotating frame of reference, it looks like you're falling down on a curved path. The fictitious force that seems to be pushing you sideways is the Coriolis force.

2) You're in an aircraft hovering at the axis of the O'Neill cylinder. At this point, you're in free fall. What happens if you jump out?

If you stay close to the axis, you'd continue to hover. However, let's assume you push off the side of the aircraft and drift away from it. From the axis, any direction is "down." In a vacuum, you'd just keep drifting slowly until you converged with the surface -- although it would be rotating pretty fast relative to you and the landing could be messy as a result. An observer on the "ground" would see you spiraling outward, the Coriolis force "pushing" you sideways ever faster.

With atmosphere, however, things are different. This is where the transfer of force that Timo was referring to comes into play, though not in the way he implies. The air itself is rotating because of its mutual friction -- the rotation of the ground pulls the air in contact with it, which pulls the air higher up, and so on and so on. It doesn't all rotate as a solid mass; an observer on the surface would feel a steady, gentle Coriolis wind. Still, all the air is rotating at some velocity. So let's assume you push off from the plane in atmosphere. As you drift away from the axis, air resistance slows you, so you don't follow the same path you would in vacuum. But as you move partway out from the axis, the air is now rotating, and that tends to push you sideways. Again, because it's a circular habitat, going sideways (tangentially) takes you outward. So that pushes you into an area where the air is spinning a bit faster and pushes you farther sideways/outward. And so you're accelerated toward the surface, more gently at first than by actual gravity, but it adds up. To the observer on the ground, your path is different than it would've been in vacuum, still curved but not as severely, and with your acceleration being outward as well as sideways. The observer would perceive your fall in terms of the interaction of an outward gravitational/centrifugal force and a sideways Coriolis force, whereas in vacuum it would be perceived entirely in terms of the Coriolis force.

At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Note that if your aircraft is not at the axis, but is flying opposite the habitat's direction of spin at a velocity equal to the rotational speed, then it's essentially standing still and its interior would be more or less in free fall. Even if you're in a car driving on the surface, your weight would increase if you drive fast in the direction of spin and decrease if you drive opposite to it. So aircraft would be advised to take off in an antispinward direction, since that would make it easier to leave the ground.
 
Which is the problem with having a Dyson shell in the Trek universe: why bother? Why go to the trouble of converting a star system into a giant artificial habitat when you can just travel to other planets if you need more living space?

Why did the Cytherians bother to make other species smart enough to come to them instead of going out and finding them like the Federation and so many others do? ;)

IMO, different strokes for different folks.
 
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