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He's Out...He's In...He's Out...???

Orci has said that he'll post Shatner/Kirk's scene online after the movie is released. Should be interesting.

That's great.

It really hard to tell at this point whether it was his ego that axed it, or if it was just a bad scene, or both. (Hell, Abrams himself said that the scene didn't feel right, so it's not out-of-the-question that the scene was just bad.)

For now, we are all reacting based on our pre-existing feelings about Shatner.

A detailed description of the scene should add clarity. (Though, probably, not much. We are all pretty entrenched.) :lol:
 
^ Was it Chef or Mirror-Universe-Kirk-from-the-future?

I can't remember specifically, and I don't want to get it wrong. (I just remember it was terrible and he was wise not to do it, for whatever the reason.)

Someone at this BBS had posted a scan of a page from a magazine (Star Trek: The Magazine, I think) that had all the details.

Maybe one of our detailed archivists can find it and/or re-post it.
 
Okay, this is by no means definitive, but a little digging turned up this post, which is consistent with what I remember reading in the Star Trek Communicator article:

According to Trektoday (http://www.trektoday.com/news/170305_02.shtml) -

"The idea was that the Tantalus Field was not a disintegrator, it was a humane way of dealing with prisoners, by sending them back in time to a sealed penal colony," explained Garfield Reeves-Stevens. "Enterprise NX-01 comes upon the colony — and Tiberius [mirror-Kirk] is there. Tiberius thinks, 'Finally, a ship with a transporter — I can get back to my own universe, my own time.'" But once he gets to Enterprise's transporter, he discovers that the mirror universe does not exist yet; it diverged from the familiar universe due to something for which Tiberius and Archer were jointly responsible.

Shatner pitched the storyline to Coto, Brannon Braga and Rick Berman, only to discover that the latter had a different alternate universe pitch developed by Sussman in which Shatner would play Chef, an ancestor of Kirk whom time-traveler Daniels wanted to use to replace the real Kirk at an important event when Kirk went missing. "We pitched this to Shatner and there was a long silence," said Coto. When negotiations for Shatner to appear on the show fell through, Sussman went ahead with a mirror-universe two-parter that did not involve Tiberius and instead used the USS Defiant from "The Tholian Web."

...and here's another bit, which is essentially a re-hash...

Taken from: http://chaosinabox.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_archive.html

And, I have to share this bit of Star Trek news. As I may have told you, as season 4 of Enterprise went on, we always heard rumours that negotiations were underway to have William Shatner be on the show. Would he have been Captain Kirk? Would he have been Kirk's ancestor? What might have been....

Well, now the writers are telling us.

William Shatner was going to play Evil Kirk from the mirror universe.

The plot was, in the 23rd Century, Evil Spock was going to do away with Evil Kirk using Evil Kirk's secret weapon - the Tantalus Field. But, the Tantalus Field isn't a disintigrator like we orginally thought. It's a transporter that sends you to a penal colony - 100 years in the past. So, Evil Kirk is stuck in the past. In the past, who happens upon this penal colony but Capt. Archer and his Enterprise? Naturally, Evil Kirk goes, "Yes! They have a transporter! I can recreate that accident from the first time I got sent to this alternate universe, and get home!" Evil Kirk gets on board the NX-01, makes the transpoter modification...and goes nowhere. Turns out the mirror universe doesn't exist yet. So, Capt. Archer and Evil Kirk then have to work together to figure out when the mirror universe splits off from this one. And the big sci-fi twist ending? Capt. Archer and Evil Kirk create the mirror universe by trying to figure out when it starts.

This was actually William Shatner's idea. He came up with it with Judith and Garfield Revees-Stevens. The Revees-Stevens co-wrote all of Shatner's Star Trek novels, and were writing for Enterprise this season. The writers all loved it! The big wigs at Paramount loved it! Rick Berman and Brannon Braga loved it!

But Rick Berman had a better idea.

Rick Berman's idea was that William Shatner would play the NX-01's Chef - and great, great grandfather of Captain Kirk's. One day, Crewman Daniels (a recurring character from 29th Century Starfleet whose job it is to protect the timeline) appears and says, "Captian Kirk has disappeared! We must preserve the timeline!" And then, he would zap the NX-01 into the future where Chef would have to masquerade as Capt. Kirk until the real Kirk could be found.

William Shatner ended negotiations after Berman's "better" idea.

Ahh, what might have been....

Shatner's pitch was bad.

Coto, Braga, and Berman's idea was a thousand times worse.
 
Yeah, I can see why he didn't want to do it. What the fuck was Berman thinking? Is it like B&B wanted to intentionally kill Enterprise...

Well, here's a longer version of that same story which attributes the idea to Mike Sussman:

The convention-goers were treated to a sneak preview of the upcoming mirror-universe two-parter, "In a Mirror, Darkly," which airs April 22 and 29. Before they showed clips, though, the writers explained the long history of the concept. "We had talked about doing a mirror universe episode ever since we got into Season Four," Coto began. "But then we had the possibility of getting William Shatner. Coincidentally, the Reeves-Stevens [who have worked with Shatner on several Trek novels] were a pair of writers whom I desperately wanted to bring on the show. And they, it turned out, had an idea for a mirror universe two-parter which would feature the return of William Shatner."

At past conventions, Shatner has spoken about a story concept which he himself pitched that was well received. But Paramount and Shatner failed to reach agreement so, as we know, Shatner wouldn't be making a guest appearance on Enterprise. However, the Reeves-Stevens couple (affectionately called "the Bynars" by their fellow writers) were now able to reveal what that pitch was.

"The idea was that the Tantalus Field was not a disintegrator, it was a humane way of dealing with prisoners, by sending them back in time to a sealed penal colony," Garfield Reeves-Stevens explained. "Enterprise NX-01 comes upon the colony — and Tiberius [mirror-Kirk] is there. Tiberius thinks, 'Finally, a ship with a transporter — I can get back to my own universe, my own time.' He basically goes on the NX-01, gets to the transporter, sets it to go back to the mirror universe — the mirror universe doesn't exist." "It hasn't been created yet," Judith elaborated. Garfield continued: "So Tiberius and Archer work together to figure out where the division point is between the universes, what point that one split off into the other. And as it turns out, Tiberius and Archer together are responsible for the creation of the mirror universe."

Coto recounted that Shatner pitched the idea to him, Brannon Braga and Rick Berman over lunch. They loved it, but Berman pitched an alternative concept, which was actually devised by Mike Sussman.

So Sussman explained that: "Shatner was going to be 'Chef' — an ancestor of Kirk. We would find out that at some point in the future the real Kirk got into trouble, got taken out of history. And Daniels would show up, he would grab Archer, he would grab Chef — who of course looked like William Shatner — and say, 'You have to go to the future and impersonate Captain Kirk in some important ceremony.' That was the setup."

"We pitched this to Shatner and there was a long silence," Coto continued. Well, since negotiations fell through, there would be no Kirk story, but they still wanted to do a mirror-universe two-parter. "We started bandying about ideas, trying to figure out a way to get our characters into the mirror universe, because as you all know in the Original Series the mirror universe was pretty much a first-contact situation. What do we do about that? We came up with a concept of doing the story solely in the mirror universe. As if you're watching a Star Trek: Enterprise episode coming straight from the mirror universe, including a whole new title sequence. And there's very little interaction with our regular universe.


http://www.bringbackkirk.com/oldnews.html

Take that for what you will...
 
I like the "Dave" (or "Double Star") idea better than the Mirror-Kirk one because it's more novel (for Trek) and less fanwanky, but I doubt that the Trek writers could have gotten the full value out of it. That kind of thing needs a light touch and a sense of irony - and "Star Trek" isn't noted for either. If Abrams successfully resurrects the thing, perhaps at some point the new writers will be able to broaden the Franchise's palette a bit.

As for the Shatner-in-Trek-XI scene - well, Abrams and others were never satisfied that it belonged in the film so it won't be surprising if it turns out to be less than inspiring on the page.
 
"Dave" is the Kevin Kline film about the guy who impersonates the President - it was on my mind because of having caught the end of it the other night on cable. "Double Star" is, IMAO, a short masterpiece of Heinlein's - it's from his pulp period and I don't know if it's in print right now (but shouldn't be hard to find) - about a vain, out-of-work actor who's hired under duress to impersonate a missing politician.
 
"Dave" is the Kevin Kline film about the guy who impersonates the President - it was on my mind because of having caught the end of it the other night on cable. "Double Star" is, IMAO, a short masterpiece of Heinlein's - it's from his pulp period and I don't know if it's in print right now (but shouldn't be hard to find) - about a vain, out-of-work actor who's hired under duress to impersonate a missing politician.

Gotcha.

"Dave," I know.

"Double Star," I don't.

I thought maybe you were referring to a particular poster who had suggested an idea for a Shatner role.

As Orci and Kurtzman's Optimus Prime would say: "My bad."
 
They're what Heinlein referred to as "little tailor" stories (he claimed that there were three basic stories - the second, he called "the man who learned better." The third escapes me right now). What makes them fun and worthwhile are the qualities and passions that the protagonist (in this case, "Chef") discovers in himself when forced to grow into his new role, and the ways in which he identifies with or rebels against what he learns about the character he's impersonating or mistaken for.
 
shatner should just stop bitching about this. star trek is done with him and he is done with star trek. he should just focus on his current stuff instead of trying to relive old glory days. i'm not sure if it's true that abrams said shatner wanted the movie to focus on him. ego much? just had enough of his bitching about it.
 
I think I'd have preferred the Chef storyline.

As much as I would have liked to see him back onscreen, I wouldn't have looked forward to his Eeeeeevil Kirk. He loves to ham up stuff like this.
 
The one thing I like about Shatner's idea (I don't like his idea as a whole) is that the mirror universe that we saw in Mirror Mirror did not exist in ENT's time period (it did not yet diverge).

It sometimes bothers me that the mirror universe parallels ours TOO closely. If mirror Archer and Trip existed in an alternate universe, and Archer could die at the hands of the future Empress Sato, I really doubt that events would follow that Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Chekov, and Uhura would all come to be on the mirror Enterprise 115 years later. Surely their personal history would not be so similar to that of our TOS heroes.

In some respects, it seems to make more sense that the universes diverged sometime closer to the TOS timeframe, but that doesn't make much sense either -- i.e. why would the whole Federation be so damn evil if it was so "nice" just a few years earlier.

But then again, I must remind myself from time to time that it is simply a TV show, and it doesn't need to always be completely believable.
 
The one thing I like about Shatner's idea (I don't like his idea as a whole) is that the mirror universe that we saw in Mirror Mirror did not exist in ENT's time period (it did not yet diverge).

It sometimes bothers me that the mirror universe parallels ours TOO closely. If mirror Archer and Trip existed in an alternate universe, and Archer could die at the hands of the future Empress Sato, I really doubt that events would follow that Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Chekov, and Uhura would all come to be on the mirror Enterprise 115 years later. Surely their personal history would not be so similar to that of our TOS heroes.

In some respects, it seems to make more sense that the universes diverged sometime closer to the TOS timeframe, but that doesn't make much sense either -- i.e. why would the whole Federation be so damn evil if it was so "nice" just a few years earlier.

But then again, I must remind myself from time to time that it is simply a TV show, and it doesn't need to always be completely believable.
Well, you're right if we run under the assumption that there is only one other universe. However, if we go with the larger version of the theory that states that there are an infinite number of universes/ dimensions; some that are majorly different and some that are nearly identical. Maybe, the reason they cross over to that one specific universe is because it is so similar that it is easier to reach for some reason than a vastly different universe.
 
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