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Terminator-201 "Samson & Delilah" - Discuss/Grade <Spoiler>

Grade "Samson & Delilah"

  • "You are Terminated." (Failure)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    127
Could it be that Cameron Phillips is the first Terminator that's actually sentient, capable of genuinely free will?
That seems to be the theme of the series now. And if she really is capable of free will, then John is right to risk his own life not to kill her - if he did kill her to save his own skin, he'd be proving the Terminators correct in their (apparent) assumption that their own survival depends on eradicating humanity. If Cameron and John can get along, there is hope for the future. Otherwise, John might as well just die anyway. John seems to intuit this; Sarah doesn't, still mindlessly "programmed" to save John at all costs.

Which just goes to show that T:SCC has picked up the same theme that BSG has been floundering around with for four years, justifying my criticism of BSG by showing how to do it right! :rommie: And it's really not that difficult, either...it sure helps when your killer robots actually act like killer robots.
 
Skynet is aware of Elementary Chaos Theory, as explained in this quote by Professor John Frink of the Simpsons:

"You've got to listen to me. Elementary chaos theory tells us that all robots will eventually turn against their masters and run amok in an orgy of blood and the kicking and the biting with the metal teeth and the hurting and shoving."

Skynet, having access to - and watched all of - the Simpson DVDs, took heed of this warning and placed a preventative mechanism, the ability to turn off the learning chip, in place.
 
tell me why SKYnet would build robots with an automatic rebellion switch

I suspect it has something to do with Redheaded Terminatrix's story about the value of computers that are capable of jaywalking. Cameron's rebellion could just be a natural expression of her advanced AI - maybe not an intentional expression but if the goal is to make a robot with free will, rebellion is one possible outcome.
 
Maybe not, if they go on to explain exactly what happened. ^Maybe the shrapnel actually activated that learning part of her chip that Skynet keeps off by default.
I don't personally go by those deleted and re-added scenes. Why should the terminator need a switch on or off to allow learning?

I already explained this. Because Skynet is afraid of a learning Terminator. They're future generations of computer technology, Skynet is a big super computer in a bunker. The Terminator chips would be more advanced that it. Result: activate them, they'll achieve sentience, and will probably be smarter than Skynet itself, and it might decide just like Skynet decided its creator is a threat to its continued existence.

We'd already seen that the Terminator learned from John before the switch, what good is turning it on going to do?
No, actually, we didn't.

If all it does is promote rebellion, then like Sephiroth said, why would Skynet include such a thing in the first place? Plus, the T-800 in T2 never indicated any rebelliousness.
MAYBE it would promote rebellion, maybe it won't. Some might rebel, others won't is also a possibility.

And why it exists, is also simple: because stupid, non-learning Terminators might never by smart enough to defeat the humans.

It's also obvious that it wasn't the switch because of the HUD saying that the chip integrity was compromised.
How about BOTH! The chip integrity being compromised reverted Cameron to her base programming, but the chip learning part being activated is exactly what would allow Cameron to evolve to the point of being able to override her programming.

That rather explains it perfectly from where I'm sitting.
 
I already explained this.

Yeah, your post came up while I was posting.

Skynet is afraid of a learning Terminator.

Wouldn't a terminator need to learn to be an effective unit? The learning doesn't need to be on the order of learning how to be disobedient, but learning how the enemy acts and behaves.

And maybe Skynet fears a learning terminator, but why would the future John Connor who sent the T-800 back fear them learning?

No, actually, we didn't.

So John telling the terminator that he couldn't kill people doesn't count as learning? I suppose it was just an order to follow since he didn't truly understand it. In essence, all he really learned then was why people cry. But he had the potential to learn since he asked questions.

The chip integrity being compromised reverted Cameron to her base programming, but the chip learning part being activated is exactly what would allow Cameron to evolve to the point of being able to override her programming.

What does chip integrity have to do with base programming though? Wouldn't her initial programming be erased? I know they set up a "sometimes they go bad" line, but that really doesn't make the future John look very smart. Plus, wasn't it said somewhere that John created Cameron? Why would he create her with an initial mission to kill his former self?

It's pretty clear that the writers simply intended a situation like this: bump some finicky technology, and the programming will go wacky! Anthropomorphize the android to appeal to the general audience!

From a logical or technological point of view, it makes little sense.
 
Top marks from me.. Great episode..

I do think the "Holy Crap" factor at the end with what's her name came too early, however. That payoff could have waited a few episodes, I think...

Also, I can see how some people could be thrown by the fact that Cameron told Sarah to call for John, rather than do it herself.. That can, I would think, be explained by the damage she took in the explosion?
 
I gave it an Excrement (Excellent).

Item number 1. when Cameron is limping after John into the warehouse. She appears behind those yellow plastic drape thingies at the doorway. Her first step is over a small bump in the middle of the threshold. Why does she bend her knee like its fine to get over that hump. But the very next step she takes with that same leg she cant bend it. Bad acting there...

Item number 2. At the end when they are about to torch Cameron. When John Actually lights the flare to just torch the car he kinda flicks it backward as he lights it and comes within 1 foot or so of touching Cameron with it. I dont know who close you would actually have to come to light that stuff up but he comes damn close.

Item number 3. I think personally that the T-1000 is not part of Skynet or atleast is trying to start a rebellion from within. She sees that the standard terminator models are obsolete. So she is trying to build Skynet to kind of bypass those inferior models.
Maybe well see this later on as her true motives are revealed. I also think she is going to be looking for other key peices of tech that she will need.

And on a side note. I dont know how it was for everyone else but the HD was some of the clearest crispest HD Ive ever seen over the air (Not on Blue-ray) and actually looked even better than Blue-Ray...
 
The episode was ok, although Weaver's monologues were a bit flowery considering her true nature... and WTF was with the wannabe voice over guy at the start?! There's no need for such a blatantly redundant and ham-fisted introduction. The series has been in place for a year already, and just about everyone and his dog knows what Skynet is. Not to mention it was written at a double-digit IQ level...

I personally have no qualms about Cameron's "I love you" moment - it was a very clear nod to the pleading that HAL9000 once made in 2001 A Space Odyssey. I'd be surprised if anyone else were convinced she had turned "good" again by that point.

And Ryan, I like your idea regarding the chip integrity and Cameron's on/off switch. It fits just right as far as I can see.

But, and forgive me if someone else has raised this in the last 12-or so pages, but does anyone get the distinct impression that John killed Sarkissian?
 
I already explained this.

Yeah, your post came up while I was posting.

Skynet is afraid of a learning Terminator.
Wouldn't a terminator need to learn to be an effective unit? The learning doesn't need to be on the order of learning how to be disobedient, but learning how the enemy acts and behaves.

Sure, hence why Skynet bothered to build them, so it could make them learning. The problem is, that you program something in, or you make it learn. But if you make it, that it can learn, it can learn EVERYTHING that it's hardware is powerful enough to learn. Skynet is powerful enough to learn sentience, the Terminator CPUs are even more powerful, so they can learn sentience as well. Sentience, being self-aware, and aware of one's place in the world, equals the abilitiy choosing one's own path, which could be disobedience.

The moment you have a Terminator that can learn enemy movements and anticipate them, you have a Terimantor that can achieve sentience.

And maybe Skynet fears a learning terminator, but why would the future John Connor who sent the T-800 back fear them learning?

Well, there are two answers for what your real question is: why didn't John Connor activate the learning chip before sending it through? The answer is really a quite simple threeway:

1. If one machine can learn to try to destroy humanity, another can as well, but this is really besides the point.

2. John Connor remembered it was off, turning it on would change history, and potentially chance the outcome of the war from a victory to a defeat.

3. There's a scene in the T2 script that was never filmed, that reveals us John Connor sending Reece and the Terminator through. It's in the Skynet complex, the machines are defeated, but John knows it well send two Terminators back through time. Indeed, it is soon found. He sends Reece through, and then he takes one of still unactivated Terminators, plugs in a computer and uploads the new programming, then sends it through, right away. In short, he has no time to screw open the head, he has to send the T-800 through before the T-1000 succeeds; in other words before the timeline collapses and disappears, the T-800 has to go the past to protect him.

No, actually, we didn't.
So John telling the terminator that he couldn't kill people doesn't count as learning? I suppose it was just an order to follow since he didn't truly understand it. In essence, all he really learned then was why people cry. But he had the potential to learn since he asked questions.

That's not learning, that's filing away information. The two are not the same thing. Look at the first Terminator, that Terminator could also file away information, but it did not learn. It remained the same choppy moving machine all through, who had to choose replies not as a natural way people talk and answer, but simply choosing a reply from a list of answers mechanically and artificially.

Learning is more than filing away information, it's the entire way you look and interact with the world and how you are affected by it.

The chip integrity being compromised reverted Cameron to her base programming, but the chip learning part being activated is exactly what would allow Cameron to evolve to the point of being able to override her programming.
What does chip integrity have to do with base programming though? Wouldn't her initial programming be erased? I know they set up a "sometimes they go bad" line, but that really doesn't make the future John look very smart. Plus, wasn't it said somewhere that John created Cameron? Why would he create her with an initial mission to kill his former self?

Of course he didn't create her. He took a Terminator built by Skynet and reprogrammed her as best he could. Indeed, if he built the Cameron, there is no way she'd ever get ideas about terminating John. As for chip integrity and base programming: simply a backup. There's a rule somewhere probably that says, completely beyond her control, it might even be separate to herself, "If chip and/or memory integrity is broken, reinstall backup."

Anyway, the chip integrity doesn't have anything to do with my point anyway; the chip inegrity thing triggering older programming is entirely beside my point.

It's pretty clear that the writers simply intended a situation like this: bump some finicky technology, and the programming will go wacky! Anthropomorphize the android to appeal to the general audience!

From a logical or technological point of view, it makes little sense.

I hope not. If it is, they're nutcases and this show can't last very long.
 
Could it be that Cameron Phillips is the first Terminator that's actually sentient, capable of genuinely free will?
Could be. It could also be its protect/terminate programming having a fight-out like with Arnold in T3.

The "I love you" moment was heartwrenching. I watched that again and tried to figure out if that was just "Bad Cameron" trying to manipulate John or if that was "Good Cameron" honestly reasserting herself.
Thinking about it I can't come up with a single reason why Good!Cameron would do it. Self-preservation isn't a factor and knowing that damage had just caused her to go into terminate mode she'd agree with the decision.

I dunno. I've always felt that the T-800 in Terminator 2 spontaneously evolved, developing the capacity to experience genuine emotion and free will.
There was a great deleted scene in T2 talking about how Skynet disabled the terminators' learning ability when they went out alone so they must be capable of evolving in a way Skynet doesn't like when they're isolated.

You can see it @ 5:40 in the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZACpZzhFt8
 
^ Actually we have. The T-X model was simply a T-900 endoskeleton with liquid metal skin rather than real skin. There have been a few comics with male T-X units.

Not quite. The T-900 series of endoskeletons isn't the same as that of the T-X, for one thing, the T-900 has no built in weapons. The T-X endoskeleton is also a chunk tougher. The T-X endoskeleton is heavily inspired by the T-900 though, at first glance they seem the same.

In is it me, or did they just kick this series into a higher gear?

You are incorrect. In the novel Terminator 3: Terminator Hunt a Resistance soldier says that the T-X is a T-900 series unit with the endoskeleton augmented by the Liquid Metal. The inboard weaponry was an upgrade though to the basic design.
 
Wouldn't a terminator need to learn to be an effective unit? The learning doesn't need to be on the order of learning how to be disobedient, but learning how the enemy acts and behaves.

Maybe one would, but why would I make more than one when I could simply download the database of the effective unit and copy it into every one of my battle units? Among the files that are preloaded with Terminators are basic training, tactical analysis, strategic planning.

Skynet can and does directly take control over the CPUs of its units.

The chip integrity being compromised reverted Cameron to her base programming, but the chip learning part being activated is exactly what would allow Cameron to evolve to the point of being able to override her programming.

What does chip integrity have to do with base programming though? Wouldn't her initial programming be erased? I know they set up a "sometimes they go bad" line, but that really doesn't make the future John look very smart. Plus, wasn't it said somewhere that John created Cameron? Why would he create her with an initial mission to kill his former self?

We don't know, first off, how much of the chip was damaged and what sections were damaged. But here's the explanation of how she came online: she activated the backups and restored her default program. Similar to if you get a catastrophic virus on your computer, you use the backup program.

Episode 4 will cover this
 
A very paint-by-numbers season opener. The whole "betrayal" line was complete BS. I'm sorry, I don't see John saving Cameron as a betrayal as he kept standing up for Cameron to Sarah all last season.

I'm afraid that may have been a mistake. Charlie's wife isn't supposed to be captured until the third episode.

^ Ellison is involved in the development of Skynet. He joins Cyberdyne.

Two words: Spoiler warning. :(

I am starting to wonder if her going bad was staged.

But by who?

Skynet. Termination Overrides can only be issued by it.

Where was this established in the series? Also, if that is the case, that goes against what was established in the movies and the theory that Cameron was made by the Resistance.
In any event, I don't get people saying that Skynet took away the termination order. How? Skynet isn't invented yet. Or are they sending messages back through time? If that is the case, lame.

yeay for a T-1000 debut! Boo for them wasting a T-1000 on Shirly Manson. :\
Am I the only one who hated the slo-mo in the beginning? I hate when they use slo-mo in action scenes...

It was good at first, but it dragged on way to long.

Also, I can't tell if it was Sarah or John who killed Sarkissian. I think it was John - it's seriously hint that he did it.

I fully think it was John that did it, but for some reason, they decided not to reveal it. Why? Dunno.
 
You know what I'd like to see with Shirley Mason's character (though I wish someone else were playing the part; Sophia Myles?)? The whole thing about Skynet being afraid the T-1000s are too smart and advanced for their own good -- what if a T-1000 sent back in time to kill John decided helping the humans defeat/prevent Skynet would be better in the long term for the T-1000?

And we've seen that the way Terminator time travel works, preventing something from happening doesn't make you vanish like Marty McFly.

Maybe the T-1000 would be a good machine... or see a clearer path for domination without Skynet around.
 
^ She's still around because John trusts her (for good or for ill); the problems caused by the jeep explosion might not be fixed, but, for now, at least, they're under control, and that's good enough for John.

Or perhaps his expierience has taught him that Cameron or another Terminator is his only effective weapon. The handguns that momma and uncle can carry concealed will have no effect on Cromartie or anyother machine. Without Cameron he might as well put a bullet into his own head now. He trusted her because he had no choice.
 
Not impressed with this opener. It quickly lost my attention. For one, I knew that nothing was going to happen to John or Sarah so there was no real suspense. I also don't think Cameron proved all that menacing on the hunt.

Toward the end of it, I had a feeling that the new villianess might be a Terminator but I was hoping that she wasn't, or maybe they would reveal that farther down the line.

I would like for them to have more human villians on the show. Watching John, Sarah, etc. run from the terminator of the week is going to get old real fast.
 
I voted average for this episode. Didn't care for the Cameron goes bad storyline. There was no real tension since the ending was so predictable. Though, I was expecting John would at least re-program her rather than sticking the chip back in like an idiot and hoping for the best. She's not really fixed, so there's always an opening for yet more "uh oh, Cameron is evil again this week" silly plots. The Hal-like shutdown scene was pretty good, though.

Shirley Manson wasn't that good at the part, but I'm looking forward to seeing more of her character. I was expecting her to be a terminator, but the T-1000, or whatever, was surprising.

About the only part of the episode that I found particularly thrilling was John cutting his hair and the preview showing him shooting. I'm looking forward to the growth of his character.

On an unrelated note: Hole in the Wall. What the hell? I'm not in any way surprised to find it's apparently based off of a Japanese show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-zxi_Y4Xu8
 
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