Babylon 5 - Question of Rank

[matthunter]

[...]
Everything I've ever seen on-screen was consistent with US Military rank structure... except for the "promotion" of Lochley in "Lost Tales" which has been mentioned here. B5 treated "ground forces" (Army/Marine) with conventional US Military ground forces rank structures. And treated "Naval" forces (which seem to now include the equivalent of the "air force" today) with Naval rank structures.
[...]

How do you see "Generals" Hague, Smits and Lecourt (sp) and "Major" Ryan fit in with your observations, since they are by their uniform color and insignias clearly naval officers?

The original B5 role-playing game suggested that officers who began their careers in one service branch retain their rank title even if they transfer. So Hague and Ryan were originally GROPOS but switched to the Naval forces when they realized they had a talent for ship operations. Garibaldi is rated for Starfury piloting, so this may be common enough if an Army officer/enlisted man is assigned to a spaceborne posting.

 

[BenRoethig]

[...]
Everything I've ever seen on-screen was consistent with US Military rank structure... except for the "promotion" of Lochley in "Lost Tales" which has been mentioned here. B5 treated "ground forces" (Army/Marine) with conventional US Military ground forces rank structures. And treated "Naval" forces (which seem to now include the equivalent of the "air force" today) with Naval rank structures.
[...]

How do you see "Generals" Hague, Smits and Lecourt (sp) and "Major" Ryan fit in with your observations, since they are by their uniform color and insignias clearly naval officers?

They switched from Ground/Security branch to the Naval Branch.

 

[Reverend]

For the purposes of this discussion, I'd like to discount the various RPGs as a credible source. There's just too much made up stuff from what I've seen and it's hard to distinguish it from the accurate date.

No, as far as the branches are concerned, I've spent the last few days going though B5 & Crusade getting reference caps and I have to say the uniforms are surprisingly consistent. So as as far as I am concerned, Ryan and Hague were both fleet officers. That fact that Hague was commanding the Alexander is proof enough of that, since there's no way I can see a Marine Major taking command of a destroyer, even if the next highest rank is a navy Lieutenant. He would simply be unqualified.

As for the basis of the overall rank structure, while there is clearly a HEAVY influence from the American services it's clearly not a carbon copy and frankly it can't be. Rank structure and the organisation of the forces is dictated by the circumstances of the day and in the "Babylon 5" universe, terms like "Army" "Navy" and "Airforce" are as archaic as "Dragoons" "Cohorts" and "Ashigaru" are to today's forces. Remember that until just under 100 years ago there was no such thing as an Airforce and the structure used by most countries to day are not carbon copies of their Armies and Navies but something new that's been adapted to suit a new purpose.
So in 200 years, I don't belive Earthforce (made up of people and traditions from all over the world) would cling to old ideas like "Navy" and "Airforce" when as far as a spaceship is concerned, those two terms are totally meaningless. So there's no reason at all why Earthforce can't be a merging of the two traditions, adapted for the circumstances.

As for the various branches, the way I've come to understand it is this; Fleet is obviously for crewing and commanding the fleet of warships that make up Earthforce and operating (at least in part) the ports those ships dock at. The EFMC (Gropos) are the mobile infantry of the force and rely on fleet to move them around, however while they're mostly concerned with ground bases, they also provide security onboard starships. This is because Earthforce security is a Police force that works alongside the military but at the same time is not the military. I can't speak for the US Army, but here we have what's called the MOD Police (not the same thing as MPs) they're effectivly coppers, but their authority beigns and ends on MOD property, so they're mostly concerned with policeing the family quarters on army camps, which overlaps with the normal coppers (who they get along with like an office block on fire.) Now, most ModPlods are ex-squaddies, mostly because they can't quite deal with civvie street but don't want a job where they're expected to run towards people that shoot at them. So it's no surprise to be at all that Garibaldi is an ex-marine. The fact that he's a qualified pilot probably goes back to his Gropo days since the Marines probably fly their own transports, shuttles, attack craft and breaching pods. Which ties in to the service being a combined one, in that while they are technically seperarate, they also overlap all over the place.

As for why B4 was under the command of a Marine major, I imagine it had something to do with the last three stations blowing up. He was only there for the final stages and once it was opened to the public I imagine the plan was for a fleet officer to take over.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

As for why B4 was under the command of a Marine major, I imagine it had something to do with the last three stations blowing up. He was only there for the final stages and once it was opened to the public I imagine the plan was for a fleet officer to take over.

According to JMS, that's exactly what was to happen. Major Krantz was not the commander of the station but the CO of the construction team.

From the Lurker's Guide for "Babylon Squared" under JMS Speaks (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/020.html)

No commander had yet been assigned to Babylon 4. One Major Krantz had been assigned to oversee the final stages of construction, and was on board -- along with about 1300 others in the construction crew -- when the station vanished. The station had only been on- line 24 hours, and the discussions of a commanding officer had just begun when it disappeared.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm not recalling perfectly at the moment, but I seem to recall that the "Gropos" had a different name... aka, not "Earthforce."

The GROPOS' marching song contains the phrase 'EarthForce Marine Corps'. Link

"GROPOS" stands for "ground pounders" and refers to the Earth Alliance's equivalent of the U.S. Marines. In fact, the term "Earth Force Marine Corps" was contained in the Gropos' marching song.

And the transfer theory doesn't work out either - AFAIK, Franklin's father once served on a starship as its XO. So assuming he started out there, then he should still have a Naval rank, even after transferring to the Marines.

 

[Reverend]

RE: Earthforce Marine Corps - It's easy to miss bit PFC Turnbow's ("Large") t-shirt has the Marines emblem over the letters "EFM". So I'd say there's no question the Gropos are in Earthforce.

As for Old Firestorm; for the sake of acuracy, the exact words used were "Lares was shot down and captured by enemy forces" and "My father was first officer on the Lares."
From that we can presume the Lares was a relativly small ship, capable of atmospheric flight, since if it was a cruiser, it would never have survived being shot down in any single piece larger than a beachball. So perhaps it was a Marine frigate or corvette or something similar? So Franklin need not have transfered from Fleet to Marine Corps, but then I suppose there's no reason he couldn't have.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

[...]

The connection between Hague and Sheridan wasn't that they were in the same chain of command at any prior point. They were in a "conspiracy." So I'm not at all bothered by that. And Major Ryan was simply General Hague's adjutant.... his assistant. In times of civil war, I'm sure that the niceties of command structure become a bit more... fluid?

I'm afraid I'm not remembering General Smits. Who was he again?

[...]

Well Gen. Hague gives Sheridan his marching orders in "Points of Departure", so here to me he seems to be in the same chain of command.

Gem. Smits was the one that relays the orders of the political office to give station security to Nightwatch in "Point of No Return"

 

[Cary L. Brown]

[...]

The connection between Hague and Sheridan wasn't that they were in the same chain of command at any prior point. They were in a "conspiracy." So I'm not at all bothered by that. And Major Ryan was simply General Hague's adjutant.... his assistant. In times of civil war, I'm sure that the niceties of command structure become a bit more... fluid?

I'm afraid I'm not remembering General Smits. Who was he again?

[...]

Well Gen. Hague gives Sheridan his marching orders in "Points of Departure", so here to me he seems to be in the same chain of command.

Gem. Smits was the one that relays the orders of the political office to give station security to Nightwatch in "Point of No Return"

Wasn't Hague Chairman of the Joint Chiefs?

 

[Reverend]

It was just said he was a member of the joint chiefs, his exact role wasn't specified.

Small detail I just turned up while searching the transcripts; That Marine Colonel from season one ("Eyes") specifically says he outranks Sinclair, an Earthforce Commander, so the evidence is certainly mounting on the "one rank structure for all branches" argument. Though as I recall the only reason he was able to pull rank was because he was there under the direct authority of the President and the Joint Chiefs, which is also where the commander of Babylon 5 (regardless of rank) gets his or her authority, which is why we have instances like with the Captain of the Hyperion, Major Kemmer and Major Ryan. Though it might be worth remembering that in the case of Ryan, at that point he was officially a renegade, so even if he was so inclined, he'd be in no position to pull rank. Aside from that, a ship's captain has no direct authority over a military governor anyway, unless like Colonol looney scarface he's under a higher authority.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Small detail I just turned up while searching the transcripts; That Marine Colonel from season one ("Eyes") specifically says he outranks Sinclair, an Earthforce Commander, so the evidence is certainly mounting on the "one rank structure for all branches" argument.

Not at all. A US Marine Colonel (O-6) in today's military outranks a US Navy Commander (O-5).

I, as an US Army officer, on several occasions spent a brief period of time on a US Navy vessel. Despite the fact that I was in a different branch, I was still significantly outranked by the vessel's commanding officer, and while I wasn't in his "chain of command," and thus my orders came from elsewhere, he still had a very real degree of legal authority over me, due to that.

So, while this certainly doesn't DISPROVE the "unified structure" it does nothing whatsoever to prove it, either.

 

[Reverend]

Well no, the point is he relieves Sinclair and takes command on the basis he our ranks him and has authority from the joint chiefs. Something that shouldn't be possible in a "dis-unified" structure.

But, you tell me, if you were in the highly unlikely scenario of the ship's captain being relieved while you were onboard a ship, the fact that you're the next highest ranking officer wouldn't put you in command, or would it?

That he has authority over you isn't surprising in the least, according to our naval traditions, a captain at sea is next in line from god in terms of authority.
That is, if an army General or even Field Marshal were aboard, then they would have no more direct authority over the ship than a passenger.
Now having the Queen on-board, that's another matter. Technically even now she can order our armed forces to war...but I digress.

 

[J.T.B.]

Well no, the point is he relieves Sinclair and takes command on the basis he our ranks him and has authority from the joint chiefs. Something that shouldn't be possible in a "dis-unified" structure.

I haven't seen these episodes since the original run, so I don't remember particulars. But it would most likely depend on the rules establishing the command. If it was a "joint" operation, which would not be surprising with its diplomatic role, the post would most likely be open to an officer of any branch.

There are different values of "unified" forces. The process by which the US armed forces were combined under the Department of Defense in the late 1940's was called "unification." It did not, obviously, do away with the individual services, but changed they way they were organized and commanded at the upper levels.

As I mentioned earlier, the term "joint chiefs" implies that there are different elements that come together at that level. I know the term was just lifted from the US forces, but it still has an implication. Completely unified armed forces like Canada's don't use words like "joint," it is implicit in the structure.

But, you tell me, if you were in the highly unlikely scenario of the ship's captain being relieved while you were onboard a ship, the fact that you're the next highest ranking officer wouldn't put you in command, or would it?

That he has authority over you isn't surprising in the least, according to our naval traditions, a captain at sea is next in line from god in terms of authority.

Because of the specialized nautical know-how involved, there are normally very strict guidelines as to who is in charge of a warship and who is in line for command. Under US Navy regulations, the only officer that can give orders to a vessel's CO is a flag officer eligible for command at sea. So if the CO is a commander, and there was an O-6 captain aboard, the CO would still be in charge. Likewise if there was a supply corps admiral aboard, or a four-star general.

Still, there is some flexibility if the higher-ups feel it is necessary. A few years ago, a marine brigadier general was given command of a seven-ship expeditionary (amphibious) strike group, flying his red flag on USS Belleau Wood. That was something of an experiment, and we will see if it is repeated, but the door was opened.

--Justin

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Well no, the point is he relieves Sinclair and takes command on the basis he our ranks him and has authority from the joint chiefs. Something that shouldn't be possible in a "dis-unified" structure.

But, you tell me, if you were in the highly unlikely scenario of the ship's captain being relieved while you were onboard a ship, the fact that you're the next highest ranking officer wouldn't put you in command, or would it?

That's a little debatable.

I certainly wouldn't have found myself in that situation... I was a company-grade officer and the guy commanding the ship I was on was almost always many paygrades above me.

However... let's say that a four-star General was on a Frigate, and the ships' captain was out of action. It's entirely possible that this could happen. If the general was a Marine general, all the more so, since the Marines are closely tied to the Navy.

It's bloody unlikely, and pretty improper in any case. In the case of B5 and Sinclair's "trial," it was supposed to be improper, though, wasn't it? And in the case of Major Ryan, well... the entire chain of command does tend to become a bit more flexible if you're in open rebellion, I'm sure. Ryan was with them for quite some time. Hague was in-command by virtue of who he was, not what his rank was. And Ryan was his closest advisor and friend, so it's not surprising that they came up with an impromptu structure which put Ryan up there.

We don't even know if the "real" captain of that ship was a Clark loyalist... maybe he was, and got left behind at port. Just a possibility... maybe Ryan was a LOT higher than anyone else who didn't have a necessary job to do!

 

[Reverend]

I got the impression that the Alexander was Hague's flagship (possibly his old ship from his captaining days) since I can't see him planting his flag on any old ship and go off being renegades unless he knows the crew is with him, otherwise there's a very real possibility of mutiny. As for Ryan's role on the ship, I'm certain the XO was at least a Lieutenant Commander, if not a full Commander so they puts Major at or above a Captain's pay grade, otherwise the XO wouldn't be Siring him and taking orders and we know Ryan is Fleet since he's in blue. So that alone indicates that Kemmer did in fact outrank Ivanova, though her position in Presidential Security meant she was outside of the Babylon 5 struction and couldn't give direct orders.

...Ok, one little bit of evidence I just recalled, though I'm not certain how significant it is; when Sheridan is explaining the stat bar (I think in that downbelow squat Kosh sent him into) he says it indicates "which part of the service you're in". Note the singular, 'Service', so all of Earthforce is one service, not several working together. In fact I think that's consistant thoughout the show, it's always "the service" and if you really want to use grammer to prove a point, I suppose one might point out it's Earthforce, not Earthforces.

 

[Marc]

[...]
Everything I've ever seen on-screen was consistent with US Military rank structure... except for the "promotion" of Lochley in "Lost Tales" which has been mentioned here. B5 treated "ground forces" (Army/Marine) with conventional US Military ground forces rank structures. And treated "Naval" forces (which seem to now include the equivalent of the "air force" today) with Naval rank structures.
[...]

How do you see "Generals" Hague, Smits and Lecourt (sp) and "Major" Ryan fit in with your observations, since they are by their uniform color and insignias clearly naval officers?

The original B5 role-playing game suggested that officers who began their careers in one service branch retain their rank title even if they transfer. So Hague and Ryan were originally GROPOS but switched to the Naval forces when they realized they had a talent for ship operations. Garibaldi is rated for Starfury piloting, so this may be common enough if an Army officer/enlisted man is assigned to a spaceborne posting.

It days gone by it wasn't unheard of for non-coms to be pilots but I think that generally went the way of the dodo post WW2.

That said I do have recollection that WOs were get to fly helicopters but that could be just a from watching that crap Nicholas Cage movie years back

Might be the case in the U.K armed forces as well, but at one point WO's in the Australian Army would take a full commission just before their service was up to boast their pensions/benefits after doing their 20 (I asked my Dad who was an officer in the reserves at the time).

 

[Reverend]

And perhaps after the Dilgar war that idea that WOs could be pilots went the way of the Coelacanth.
This is particularly the case when MOST of Earthforce is in space and requires shuttles to move personnel and equipment to and from the ground and between the ships. Putting that kind of rank restriction of pilots would be crazy in a theater of operations like space.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

Another thought.
The symbol for Earthforces navy were a pair of wings. So this service might see it's heritage equally in the wet navies as in the airforces (as the first US astronauts were a mix of naval air wing pilots and airforce pilots), so their rank structure might reflect this in being an amalgam of airforce and navy rank structure.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Ok, one little bit of evidence I just recalled, though I'm not certain how significant it is; when Sheridan is explaining the stat bar (I think in that downbelow squat Kosh sent him into) he says it indicates "which part of the service you're in". Note the singular, 'Service', so all of Earthforce is one service, not several working together. In fact I think that's consistant thoughout the show, it's always "the service" and if you really want to use grammer to prove a point, I suppose one might point out it's Earthforce, not Earthforces.

Well, I can't speak to how you do it over there, but that terminology is exactly what we currently use today. I was in the service. Not "one of the services." It's all considered "the service." Maybe they do things differently elsewhere, but in the USA, all service members are part of "the service." Regardless of whether they're Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine, or Coast Guard.

So this isn't a "change." It's entirely consistent with current usage.

FYI, a friend of mine, who was a Cobra pilot while we served together, was on the B5 production staff. He was one of the folks who occasionally would straighten out JMS's confusion on these issues. (Incidentally, he was a Chief Warrant Officer in the US Army Aviation Corps.)

 

[Neroon]

FYI, a friend of mine, who was a Cobra pilot while we served together, was on the B5 production staff. He was one of the folks who occasionally would straighten out JMS's confusion on these issues. (Incidentally, he was a Chief Warrant Officer in the US Army Aviation Corps.)

Coolness! Tell him "thanks" from the rest of us. I never paid much attention to the ranks on the show, with one exception. Delenn's line about "only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet". When I first heard it, I immediately thought of Sinclair instead of her intended meaning being Sheridan. But then it was pointed out that Sinclair was merely a Commander.

 

[Reverend]

Another thought.
The symbol for Earthforces navy were a pair of wings. So this service might see it's heritage equally in the wet navies as in the airforces (as the first US astronauts were a mix of naval air wing pilots and airforce pilots), so their rank structure might reflect this in being an amalgam of airforce and navy rank structure.

Not so. The flightwings were only to indicate that the person wearing them is a qualified pilot. You see numerous officers and non-coms in blues that don't have the wings and as has been mentioned, Garibaldi, a security chief also had the wings. By-the-by it's not just a matter of qualification, as I recall if they don't log a certain amont of flight hours per month, then they loose their flight status and by extension, flight pay.

Well, I can't speak to how you do it over there, but that terminology is exactly what we currently use today. I was in the service. Not "one of the services." It's all considered "the service." Maybe they do things differently elsewhere, but in the USA, all service members are part of "the service." Regardless of whether they're Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine, or Coast Guard.

Yeah, I know it's a flimsy argument, but I've honestly heard both plural and singular used. So who knows.

Still, so far I've yet to be convinced that Earthforce isn't in fact meant to be a combined service. All evidence to the effect is ambiguois at best.