Ezri was wrong!!

[SoM]

Really, if there was a Fed/Klingon dispute—and even with a relatively Fed-friendly Chancellor, they would happen—you need an Ambassador whose loyalty is indisputably to you...

Excellent observation.

On the other hand, Worf's appointment is as Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire. His personal honor is such that he will perform that duty to the best of his abilities, setting the UFP's interests above those of the Empire because that is the task he has been assigned. That's simply a pillar of his personality, in my opinion.

Two points:
1) You may well be right, speaking from the omniscient viewer's perspective of Worf, and even from Sisko & Ross' perspective as his immediate superiors - but would the Federation President and his aides know that as an absolute?
2) Worf had already blotted his copybook once, by putting family before duty in Change of Heart - an action which Sisko said would go on his Permanent Record, probably prevent him ever making Captain; and which he was only saved from a court martial and probable prison over by the need for secrecy.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

2) Worf had already blotted his copybook once, by putting family before duty in Change of Heart - an action which Sisko said would go on his Permanent Record, probably prevent him ever making Captain; and which he was only saved from a court martial and probable prison over by the need for secrecy.

Which was completely ridiculous and the total fault of his superiors, including Sisko. Never send a husband/wife team together into a situation like that. It would have made more sense if his actions in Rules of Engagement put a blot on his record.

 

[DarthPipes]

The idea of "honorable" yet vicious and bloodthirsty conquerors was always a problematic one. Early on in Next Gen, and I wonder how many remember this, the Klingons seemed to be a sort of humbled people, sometimes literally defeated. Q comments on the Feds having conquered the Klingons I think, Wesley talks about the Klingons joining the Federation, and in one episode, the backdrop behind a Klingon captain on the viewscreen showed the Federation and Klingon symbols side by side.

I could accept a Klingon race that was forced to make peace and give up conquest. (That's what they implied also in Undiscovered Country, though Next Gen had already unmade that future for them.) It's hard for me to accept a strong Klingon Empire who are supposed to be just like the old Klingons except that they signed a peace treaty. I have never heard anyone mention all the conquered worlds that they apparently got to hang onto, where they slaughtered the leaders and a large chunk of the population to take power, I'm sure. All that's forgiven. It's not the end of the Cold War, it's detente. And it's not detente with Brezhnev, it's detente with Stalin. Yet we go on about how great and honorable Klingons are.

Ezri was right. People get caught up in the romance of the warrior thing, and that's all interesting, but they have to be hypocrites. I'm going farther than Ezri did; she just pointed out a pattern of political corruption. I say it's hard to avoid that with their kind of culture.

That's a very good point. If the Klingons haven't given up their own ways (and there's no indication that they have), then the Federation is allies with a murderous empire. Detente with Stalin is a good way of putting it. You have a democracy (although the Federation seems more like a Socialist Utopia) and an empire has allies.

One TNG book I've read tackles some of this subject matter. Diplomatic Implausibility deals with Worf's first diplomatic assignment. In it, a conquered world that liberated themselves from the Klingons appealed for help from the Federation during their war with the Klingons. After the war, the Klingons reconquered the world but the Federation still had to respond to their request. It's noted in the book that standard policy for the Klingons on conquered worlds is to execute dissenters.

Having such close ties with the Empire could give the appearance that the Federation approves of such actions.

 

[UnknownSample]

That's something I also felt was lacking--some sort of confirmation of whether or not the still conquered, and as to the worlds that they still hold, whether or not they were forced to make some sort of reparations or at LEAST issue an apology the way I think Cardassia was made to apologize for the Occupation.

It would be the height of weaselly hypocrisy, don't you think, to hang onto these conquered worlds yet issue some apology for conquering them? That wouldn't have satisfied the Baltic states, if Russia had apologized yet hung onto them.

Ezri was right. Everyone gave Gowron a pass on everything. I like how a few words in Worf's ear at the replimat toppled him. Good riddance, weasel. I wonder how calculated it was, on Ezri's part? She knew the potential power of the idea she was introducing to Worf.

Nicey nice Ezri makes with the tough, challenging political criticism, that even fandom won't take kindly to... good for her!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And maybe they SHOULD have been asked to relinquish the worlds they conquered, or at least grant them the same representation that Klingon citizens got, government-wise. Though it wouldn't have been surprising to me if they did do something hypocritical...

 

[Timo]

Even in the 24th century, it appears the Federation is in no position to dictate terms to the Klingon Empire. Sure, the Klingons appear a bit pussy-whipped during the first few seasons, what with the references to them "joining" and so forth - but right until "A Matter of Honor", our Starfleet heroes positively fear the Klingons for their utter alienness and their strange ways. Riker there is the first of our characters to get into actual speaking terms with a Klingon other than Worf.

Really, as late as "Aquiel", we learn that the Federation "allies" were still in the habit of raiding Federation installations right until the 2360s... As far as the analogy goes, the Feds aren't as much in détente with Stalin as in a really cold and frozen war with him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tactical Drone]

I could be wrong but I think she was just talking about the higher-ups in the Klingon Empire in general, not just the emperors. There were many instances that involved the Duras family and the Romulans to try to take over. I think there was another one where Romulans program Geordi to murder the Emperor also.

They "conditioned" him to murder Governor Vagh of Krios.

 

[DarthPipes]

There is another thing to consider. As big as the Federation is, it's the lone democrary in a galaxy of empires. The Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Empire, and the Tholian Empire among others. The Ferengi Alliance certainly wasn't a democracy when TNG started.

 

[JM1776]

1) You may well be right, speaking from the omniscient viewer's perspective of Worf, and even from Sisko & Ross' perspective as his immediate superiors - but would the Federation President and his aides know that as an absolute?

One could go either way on that. Worf's notoriety is singular; but he is only a lieutenant commander.

2) Worf had already blotted his copybook once, by putting family before duty in Change of Heart - an action which Sisko said would go on his Permanent Record, probably prevent him ever making Captain; and which he was only saved from a court martial and probable prison over by the need for secrecy.

Ah, but that's much more of a conflicting gesa situation—his loyalty to the Federation versus that to his wife. Anthony Sabre is time on target when he blames Worf's superior—in this case Kira rather than Sisko, though—for the disastrous result.

That brings up an interesting point: Did Kira send them because she, in that situation, would abandon a spouse if the mission called for it, and didn't even consider that one of those two wouldn't? Perhaps it was a cultural difference that led to those events.

 

[SoM]

That brings up an interesting point: Did Kira send them because she, in that situation, would abandon a spouse if the mission called for it, and didn't even consider that one of those two wouldn't? Perhaps it was a cultural difference that led to those events.

I doubt that it's a cultural difference as such - I don't see any evidence from the Bajoran eps that the "average Bajoran" would do that. It certainly wouldn't be out-of-character for Kira to do so, however - didn't she leave close friends, if not spouses, behind in similar circumstances?

And, actually, I wonder... would it have been out-of-character for Jadzia to leave WORF behind in a similar circumstance? Ezri couldn't later, of course, but I'm not sure about Jadzia...

 

[Sci]

There is another thing to consider. As big as the Federation is, it's the lone democrary in a galaxy of empires. The Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Empire, and the Tholian Empire among others. The Ferengi Alliance certainly wasn't a democracy when TNG started.

To be fair, we have no canonical idea how the political structures of the Tholian Assembly, Breen Confederacy, Talarian Republic, or Gorn Hegemony work. For all we know, they could all be populist democracies.

The novels, however, do establish the following tidbits:

* The Tholian Assembly is governed by a group of Tholians known as the Ruling Conclave, who apparently constitute a hereditary caste within their society. (Star Trek: Vanguard.)
* The Breen Confederacy's head of government is called the Breen Domo. (Star Trek: Destiny - Mere Mortals.)
* The Gorn Hegemony's head of government is called the Imperator. (Star Trek: Destiny - Mere Mortals.)
* The post-Dominion War Cardassian Union has embraced democracy reluctantly, with an elected Castellan serving as head of government. (A Stitch in Time by Andrew J. Robinson.)

I'm kind of enamored of the idea that the Talarians are a democracy, though.

 

[Timo]

One also wonders if the Romulan Star Empire isn't a democracy, considering that it is ruled by a Senate complete with Senators, and has the bureaucratic trappings of a representatively ruled entity in other respects as well. Klingons, too, seem to rule through representation, with a Chancellor keeping order in a ruling body of Councillors that may or may not fairly represent the populance.

The fact that both reigns seem to go by the title of Empire (at least in the Universal Translation), and have slave classes, does not yet sufficiently establish that they wouldn't be democratically ruled. The British Empire was guilty of both charges, too, while being a representative democracy with a puppet monarch.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

One also wonders if the Romulan Star Empire isn't a democracy, considering that it is ruled by a Senate complete with Senators, and has the bureaucratic trappings of a representatively ruled entity in other respects as well. Klingons, too, seem to rule through representation, with a Chancellor keeping order in a ruling body of Councillors that may or may not fairly represent the populance.

Well, we have no idea how the Senate is chosen. I don't think it's even been established in the novels. Could be through inheritance, wealth, or elections.

TNG rather firmly established, though, that the only people who get represented in the Klingon High Council are the Great Houses -- that is to say, the families that have achieved power, wealth, and/or a reputation for prowess in battle. Hardly democratic; sounds much more like a feudalism to me.

 

[Timo]

Why would it be nondemocratic if only the high and mighty do the electing? Most democracies today don't have universal suffrage or right to run for office, but a limited suffrage that omits certain population groups (and formerly omitted much larger groups) and relatively strict theoretical or practical limits on who can run.

Both systems appear representative, which is a big part of being democratic. The vote for representation might not be common, but the system would still be democratic "from a certain level up".

It could also well be that there is no election process involved in either system, of course, nor any true representation. The terminology just happens to be rather suggestive.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ezri II]

Well I think Ezri was right!

Worf has been fighting the nature of the Klingon Empire with the leadership and with the way the common Klingon views life. Worf is very Klingon in the old school way. The Klingons just like him are the old Klingons with grey hair but Worf in his way is the most loyal to the Klingon ways of old.

What Ezri was talking about was duty, honor and loyality. In my judgment, the reason why Worf is Worf is because he had to read about Klingon duty, honor and loyality within books.

Ezri was right, reason, if the Klingon people lost there way then anyone wanting political power has to confirm to the ideas of the common man. It is a double blade sword, as the common man looks at the leadership as the model with how they act and perform in daily life. The only way the decline in values happens, is a long and slow movement with dumping the core values of the past.

 

[HRHTheKING]

When she said "who was the last Klingon leader you respected?"

He should have said "General Chang, because even though he argued in court against my grandad, he almost handed the great Captain Kirk his arse"

If she said "but he wasn't a leader" Worf should have stabbed her.

 

[Ezri II]

Worf would not stab Ezri. Then again, Ezri would stab Worf with a dinner knife if he ran down the stars with security after him.