Diane Carey?

[Thrawn]

In all fairness to the author, Red Ranger, it would appear you only read the two of her novels that are most agreed upon as terrible. I don't think anyone really liked either of those books.

Her take on Kirk in First Strike I found to be subtle and rather powerful, actually.

 

[Red Ranger]

In all fairness to the author, Red Ranger, it would appear you only read the two of her novels that are most agreed upon as terrible. I don't think anyone really liked either of those books.

Her take on Kirk in First Strike I found to be subtle and rather powerful, actually.

OK, fair enough. I'll take your word for it, but decline to inflict her prose on my eyes. Call me rigid! I will mention the one time I did ignore my original opinion was about Tom Hanks. I didn't like his earlier work before Big, but gave him a chance and was completely and pleasantly surprised when I saw that flick. So who knows, maybe someday I'll change my mind about Carey's later works! -- RR

 

[Steve Roby]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but it seemed almost a thinly veiled attackk on other ethnicities, that is, challenging Carey's world view on what makes an American. Therefore, I found her lionizing of humanity prejudiced, in a quaint kind of way.

For a non-quaint kind of prejudice, there's always her second story in the Enterprise Logs anthology, which is a hell of a lot closer to overt real world racism than I ever expected to see in a Star Trek book.

 

[William Leisner]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but it seemed almost a thinly veiled attackk on other ethnicities, that is, challenging Carey's world view on what makes an American. Therefore, I found her lionizing of humanity prejudiced, in a quaint kind of way.

For a non-quaint kind of prejudice, there's always her second story in the Enterprise Logs anthology, which is a hell of a lot closer to overt real world racism than I ever expected to see in a Star Trek book.

That story wasn't merely "close to" overt racism...

 

[Red Ranger]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but it seemed almost a thinly veiled attackk on other ethnicities, that is, challenging Carey's world view on what makes an American. Therefore, I found her lionizing of humanity prejudiced, in a quaint kind of way.

For a non-quaint kind of prejudice, there's always her second story in the Enterprise Logs anthology, which is a hell of a lot closer to overt real world racism than I ever expected to see in a Star Trek book.

That story wasn't merely "close to" overt racism...

Gee, what a, uh, surprise. Think Carey believes white people are an endangered species? -- RR

 

[wew]

But historically at the time, the post-Pearl Harbor years, racist views towards the Japanese were quite strong. You should examine some of the cartoons put out by Disney and Warner Brothers.

Wrong or right, views of racist superiority were used by both sides in pushing forth their agendas. Furthermore, any study of societies involved in wars will show that many of those societies developed an anti-______ (fill in opposing side) to develop support against the enemy.

In regards to Carey's books, I've usually enjoyed them, but not always.

 

[ronny]

I've never read Enterprise Logs so I can't comment on Carey's story but I by coincidence I saw a WWII movie this weekend on TCM that was made during the war and the racism was pretty overt so I'm to thinking any "overt racism" in the story to her depicting period in history and not her personal believes.

I haven't read Final Frontier or Best Destiny but those seem to be well liked here. I plan on reading this in the next few months just as a forward to the April book coming out next year even though I'm not expecting a ton of continuity and don't care if it's there or not. It's just an excuse to read a couple of old books.

Haven't read Battlestations or Dreadnought but opinions are mixed at best here. I understand they were big sellers when they came out.

I hated Ship of the Line and most people agree with that. I just didn't believe a word of it. I couldn't believe people were acting the way the were. I couldn't believe Bateson's crew acted they way they did, I couldn't believe they would give him command of the Enterprise, etc. And I understand there might be a lot of hero worship for the original Enterprise crew in the TNG era but Picard deciding he might be a good captain after all because he had a talk with a hologram of Kirk was just way over the top.

Red Alert, so many problems, so little time, but again the hero worship was too much.

I totally understand Ghost Ship was written without her having seen an episode or reading any scripts and having only access to the writers bible which changed some but still, when I was done reading that book I was thinking I didn't like anyone on that ship.

I don't remember much about Station Rage except thinking, again, I don't think these people would act or talk this way. And I think it's the worst characterization of Garak I can remember.

So based on all that I was going into New Earth and First Strike thinking they would be lame and I was surprised to find I liked them.

So based on what I've read I would say Carey is OK depicting TOS but she just doesn't work for me doing anything else.

As far as her personal politics goes, I didn't really pick up on that from her books until I read a comment by her in VotI where she said she fully supported Bush's invasion of Iraq. That's just crazy talk to me so it's hard for that not to color other things she says.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You say this like you're not the one that took us off topic in the first place. I tried to explain why people might not like Diane Carey; you responded with a post basically calling liberals morally ambiguous liars. If you'd just responded with this post in the first place, there'd have been no problem.

*Sigh* Can we stay on topic, please? Flaming like that is not the way to go. It's best if that stays in The Neutral Zone.

Now...interesting, how in Voyages of Imagination, it was former editor Dave Stern, I believe, who noted that Diane was the most popular Trek author, pre-Peter David. Any comments on this?

 

[Red Ranger]

You say this like you're not the one that took us off topic in the first place. I tried to explain why people might not like Diane Carey; you responded with a post basically calling liberals morally ambiguous liars. If you'd just responded with this post in the first place, there'd have been no problem.

*Sigh* Can we stay on topic, please? Flaming like that is not the way to go. It's best if that stays in The Neutral Zone.

Now...interesting, how in Voyages of Imagination, it was former editor Dave Stern, I believe, who noted that Diane was the most popular Trek author, pre-Peter David. Any comments on this?

As Kirk said to Nilz Baris in The Trouble With Tribbles when he sees tribbles like him, too, "Well, there's no accounting for taste!" There are at least a dozen authors I find more entertaining and insightful, and who also research ST ranks and mythos better, than Ms. Carey, who frequently gets those little details just dead wrong. -- RR

 

[Therin of Andor]

And her supporting cast were just pale imitations of the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy trinity.

Actually, that was the idea. In "Dreadnaught!", Piper's trinity constantly found themselves a "pale imitation", and that was half of the fun (for me). I must admit, though, I read this book the week it came out, and I liked it more that "Battlestations!"

The least diverse starship crew was in that novel Ship of the Line, featuring the Bozeman, adjusting to life in the 24th century.

It's not her most popular book. even I was puzzled by how white Terran male Kelsey Grammer's crew was. (Hehehehe.)

Give me Vonda McIntyre or Diane Duane's knack for creating diverse crews, alien and human, any day.

If you like VOY, try "The Captain's Table: Fire Ship". It did polarize readers, but I loved the very alien aliens, their unusual tech, and Janeway, as a fish out of water, rising through the ranks of an alien society by sheer grit (and skill).

The view that "Only humans are good starship commanders," strongly proposed in Dreadnaugh, I found rather objectionable.

But we were supposed to find that view objectionable. Weren't we?

 

[Geoff]

I've never read Enterprise Logs so I can't comment on Carey's story but I by coincidence I saw a WWII movie this weekend on TCM that was made during the war and the racism was pretty overt so I'm to thinking any "overt racism" in the story to her depicting period in history and not her personal believes.

You'd have to read it to fully appreciate the context, but suffice to say that the whole purpose of the story was to act as a polemic against those who felt that the internment of Japanese-Americans was unjustified.

It's one thing if a writer uses racism as a plot point to tell an interesting story. It's quite another thing if defending overt racism is the point of the story.

 

[Marco Palmieri]

Now...interesting, how in Voyages of Imagination, it was former editor Dave Stern, I believe, who noted that Diane was the most popular Trek author, pre-Peter David. Any comments on this?

Although I can't recall that particular statement appearing in the book, I think you need to consider such a claim in context. Diane's first Star Trek novel was Dreadnought!, published in May 1986. Peter's first Star Trek novel was Strike Zone, published in March 1989. This was during a time when fewer novels were being published per year, and Diane wrote--I think--three others before Peter came on the scene: Dreadnought!'s sequel, Battlestations! (November 1986), Final Frontier (January 1988), and the first original TNG novel, Ghost Ship (July 1988).

This should in no way be taken as a repudiation of the claim, which is probably true. Just some additional perspective on it.

 

[Trent Roman]

Hey, it's Marco! Long time no see. How's the kid?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[William Leisner]

But historically at the time, the post-Pearl Harbor years, racist views towards the Japanese were quite strong. You should examine some of the cartoons put out by Disney and Warner Brothers.

Wrong or right, views of racist superiority were used by both sides in pushing forth their agendas. Furthermore, any study of societies involved in wars will show that many of those societies developed an anti-______ (fill in opposing side) to develop support against the enemy.

Yes, but... this was not a 1940s-era propaganda piece; this was a short story written for Star Trek anthology in 1999. This was a story that had the main character saying the interment of Japanese-Americans was a smart move, and the ones who were being interred should just suck it up and quit whining since everyone has to sacrifice during war. (I am going on memory here, so I apologize in advance if my characterization happens to be way off base.)

She also made the choice to tell this story almost wholly through dialogue, so we unfortunately don't have the benefit of knowing the characters' thoughts, whether what they say is what they mean, not even the slightest hint that they might secretly question the prevailing racist attitudes of the period.

Now, perhaps this was Ms. Carey's intent: to make this captain of the 20th century Enterprise captain look like a racist douchebag, in order to make April, Pike, et. al. look all the better. I personally doubt this... though I can't say what Ms. Carey's intent with this story in fact was.

 

[JoeZhang]

I'm *sure* there was an article on her site about why interment was a good thing but I cannot find the place via google. Anyone got a link?

 

[Steve Roby]

Yes, but... this was not a 1940s-era propaganda piece; this was a short story written for Star Trek anthology in 1999. This was a story that had the main character saying the interment of Japanese-Americans was a smart move, and the ones who were being interred should just suck it up and quit whining since everyone has to sacrifice during war. (I am going on memory here, so I apologize in advance if my characterization happens to be way off base.)

That's the way I remember it, with the bonus feature that the Japanese-American character who has the unmitigated gall to be offended by internment is, of course, a dirty rotten traitor.

 

[Red Ranger]

Yes, but... this was not a 1940s-era propaganda piece; this was a short story written for Star Trek anthology in 1999. This was a story that had the main character saying the interment of Japanese-Americans was a smart move, and the ones who were being interred should just suck it up and quit whining since everyone has to sacrifice during war. (I am going on memory here, so I apologize in advance if my characterization happens to be way off base.)

That's the way I remember it, with the bonus feature that the Japanese-American character who has the unmitigated gall to be offended by internment is, of course, a dirty rotten traitor.

I'm sure Carey would have a different opinion if her ancestors were a minority in Japan and were imprisoned in much the same way. Of course, the Japanese, Germans, and Italians did far worse to their prisoners just before and during World War II, but still. As if I needed more reason to dislike her! -- RR

 

[Rush Limborg]

I-is that --MARCO PALMIERI? The Star Trek Editor? Here to bless my blog?

AWESOME!!!

Although I can't recall that particular statement appearing in the book, I think you need to consider such a claim in context. Diane's first Star Trek novel was Dreadnought!, published in May 1986. Peter's first Star Trek novel was Strike Zone, published in March 1989. This was during a time when fewer novels were being published per year, and Diane wrote--I think--three others before Peter came on the scene: Dreadnought!'s sequel, Battlestations! (November 1986), Final Frontier (January 1988), and the first original TNG novel, Ghost Ship (July 1988).

It was in the article on Ghost Ship. The then-editor said that Diane was "our most popular author at the time", which was why she was chosen to write the first book...before the series came out. *sigh*

On Ghost Ship...yes, I found the characterization a little too dark. Picard acts like a jerk, except for the one scene using his POV. Too be fair, though, this sometimes was how he acted in the early episodes....

Geordi, at one point, borders on insubordination, when he reacts to Riker's sending Data on a mission that will almost certainly kill him. I could imagine Beverly acting like that, but Geordi?

The story, however, was pretty good. I liked Riker reflecting on the possibility of "comparing notes" with the ghost ship's Number One... and I liked the Cold-War backstory. (Just me, but I pictured Sean Connery in the role of the ship's captain!)

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'm sure Carey would have a different opinion if her ancestors were a minority in Japan and were imprisoned in much the same way.

This has been said before, and I'll say it again --just because the characters are true-to-the-period rascist, doesn't mean that Diane supported the internment camp thing. Just because she's white, doesn't mean she intended to give a rascist message.

Of course, the Japanese, Germans, and Italians did far worse to their prisoners just before and during World War II, but still.

This would seem to be something similar to the Guantanamo Bay controversy. No comment.

As if I needed more reason to dislike her! -- RR

*sigh*

 

[JD]

I-is that --MARCO PALMIERI? The Star Trek Editor? Here to bless my blog?

AWESOME!!!

Blog?