But that's precisely why I think she was stuck between a rock and a hard place in general and not just in the case of Rachel. She's a young cop who got pushed around easily by the mob because of the situation with her mother.
Lingering Questions from 'The Dark Knight'...
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Again, this is the exact comment I was replying to:
I'm simply saying that they had gone down that path long before the Joker had ever shown up.
Now, as for whether or not she was corrupt, I don't see how her mother's medical bills really excuse her working for the mob. How many people died in mob hits while she was assisting them or in police raids where the mob was tipped off thanks to her?
And why the assumption that Wurtz didn't have similar motives? Because he was a grumpy old man that didn't cry? He was drinking when Two-Face killed him, so maybe he was drinking his guilt away?
You can be between a rock and a hard place or show remorse and still be corrupt. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Lots of people are between a rock and hard place and don't sell out to the mob.
Hmmm...okay, I see your point now.
Who cares if they were wearing hockey pads, bullet proof vest, dead animals. It has absolutly nothing to do with anything except they were dressed up like batman! Omg, seriously ya'll spent 9 pages talking about hockey pads or hockey pants.. Wow.. That is ridiculous and irrelevant!
Have a nice day
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That's exactly what did happen. That's why Dent said something like "We don't know anything about Liu's travel plans, we're just glad he's back." And Gotham didn't "sponsor" a kidnapping, because Batman was a vigilante acting on his own, as far as the rest of the world knew. Only Dent and Gordon knew the truth. Gotham PD even had an official policy of arresting Batman on site (which they weren't going to enforce, but still, to the rest of the world, that meant they were not working with Batman).
I just don't get why they had to pin the murders on Batman, or on anyone at all, even the Joker. They could've just left them as more unsolved crimes. I'm sure Gotham's got plenty of those. I loved the ending, I just wish they'd come up with some good reason for why Batman had to take a fall.
And as for Dent, I'm convinced he's still alive. First off, when moviemakers want you to know someone's dead, they usually show him lying there, eyes open. If they want to be maudlin about it, a good guy will come along and close the corpse's open eyes. Dent's good eye was closed, which said to me "unconscious." Second, they never said Dent died, and in sci fi and comics, if they don't explicitly say it (and sometimes even if they do), you can't count on it. Lastly, there was a lot of parallel structure (or repetition) in the movie. But two devices don't have a parallel unless you figure Dent's alive:
1. When Batman dangles him over a fire escape, Marone tells him he's got to learn that a fall from this height won't kill someone. The height of that fire escape seemed to me to be pretty similar to the distance Batman and Dent fell at the end, and the first thing I thought of was that scene with Marone.
2. They faked Gordon's death, and they did it convincingly. Why not also fake Dent's and lock him away in Arkham, hoping to eventually cure him?
I saw the film again last night, and only one of those two cops guarding Dent were shown actually being killed (by the Joker). The other one didn't answer his radio, but that could have meant he was just knocked out or wounded by the Joker instead of killed.
So I think they're counting the death of that cop (and they assumed Dent did it) and Wurtz, plus Maroni's guard, driver, and presumably Maroni in the crash.
I thought blaming the deaths on Batman was pretty weak too when they had so many other options available. Joker would have denied the killings, but no one would believe him (and one of the murders he actually was responsible for anyway), and he certainly had motive seeing as how he had already killed two mob bosses and their banker. Likewise, you could blame it on a rival mob boss. It may not hold up in court, but it would be sufficient to keep suspicion away from Dent.
It was a great scene when Batman went on the run, but as was said above, I wish they could have found a more plausible reason for it.
But if Dent is still alive in a coma (though I doubt it) and hidden away somewhere, his eventual discovery or escape could be a way to exonerate Batman. And if he's not, even with the inherent weaknesses of eyewitness testimony, I find it hard to believe that no one noticed a dude with half his face burned off walking away from either crime scene.
That could work. I knew we didn't see the other hospital cop die, but I just assumed that he was killed by The Joker. Your analysis makes the most sense of what has been discussed.
Who cares if they were wearing hockey pads, bullet proof vest, dead animals. It has absolutly nothing to do with anything except they were dressed up like batman! Omg, seriously ya'll spent 9 pages talking about hockey pads or hockey pants.. Wow.. That is ridiculous and irrelevant!
Have a nice day
Welcome to the Wonderful World of Internet Message Boards. I assume this is the first time on one for you then?
That would be too risky since he could escape & then the people would be really disillusioned and angry over the cover-up.
Ah, well... there's a VERY good reason to "let Harvey Dent be dead" even if he isn't. It's the EXACT same reason that Batman decided to play "fall guy," after all.
"Harvey Dent" the IDEAL was what had to be retained. It didn't matter if the real man was alive or dead... the IDEAL was what they wanted to protect.
In the comics, of course, Harvey Dent is one of the longest-lived characters (I hesitate to say "villain" because he is, really, just a pathological schizophrenic and he COULD be "healed" someday, unlike a total sociopath like the Joker... and in the 'books, he's as likely to be a hero as a villain, based upon the flip of his coin).
PARTICULARLY when you note that they did a "riff" on the end of the 1980's "Batman" scene where the Joker falls to his death, it seems unlikely that they killed him off so cavalierly.
There's an old saying in entertainment... unless you see the body, they're not dead. And in comics... it goes even further. Unless you see the body in a state of decomposition, don't count 'em out!
Dent is almost certainly critically injured but probably not dead. He's too weak to undergo any "unnecessary for life preservation" surgery, which means that they can't do the facial reconstruction, and his face will HEAL in its current state (the lack of eyelid is my one complaint about the makeup... that's simply not physically tenable!)
So, Dent will be hospitalized under a falsified name, and then institutionalized in the hopes of restoring his sanity someday.
But they can't let it get out that he cracked... that would ruin the "mythological" Harvey Dent and undo the good that he did, and in the process all the good that they're hoping to do.
My 2cents...
Within the past couple of years, Dent even was "healed." Following the Infinite Crisis, Bruce Wayne, Tim Drake, and Dick Grayson went on walkabout, retracing Bruce's steps in his quest for answers that ultimately led to him becoming the Batman. Having been rehabilitated and wanting to make up for his past crimes, Harvey Dent was tasked by the Batman with being Gotham's protector while the Batman was away.
I know Montoya from the Bruce Timm animated series, but I knew this character was Ramirez ahead of time because of Gotham Knight. And I have no beef about her being corrupt or not.
Nolan had considered using Montoya but realizing that she becomes corrupt he changed the name to something original like Ramirez.
Ah, there you have it. Thanks for that tidbit, Jackson.
It's one thing to hide the fact that a dead man committed murder by claiming responsibility for them yourselves. It's another thing to pin murders on someone who didn't commit them - even if that person is a murderer already. I can't see Batman and Gordon doing such a thing, especially in a moment where they're concerned about Gotham's soul, so to speak.
Yes, but Gordon hasn't exactly been shy about taking risks.
I think making Batman a murderer would be equally damaging to Gotham's soul, not to mention its means of fighting crime. Sure, he didn't have the popularity or reputation of Dent, and when people were scared by the Joker's demands they were ready to turn on him, but he still had inspired people to stand up to crime, albeit often in counterproductive ways.
Would Dent even have been elected had it not been for the symbol of hope Batman offered or would people have simply succumbed to apathy and thought no one person could make a difference?
How is it an improvement to have Batman unable to work with Gordon and the GCPD anymore? The chief catalyst for breaking the mafia in the film was Gordon and Batman working together with the irradiated bills to track the mob's money. Joint operations like that are out the window now.
Batman's operations are no doubt going to be seriously curbed by having to watch out for the police actively hunting him now, not to mention millions of witnesses looking out for him.
Criminals aren't likely to surrender anymore now that they think he might kill them (not that they did that often before, but I'm sure some were more likely to surrender knowing they wouldn't die).
It's not like they had a problem with lying or misleading people when it came to Dent claiming to be Batman, the means of Lau's capture, or Gordon's "death," so why get hung up with a perfectly believable lie and blame it on one of the numerous prisoners they had in custody when their decision would have such negative consquences?
And really, the Joker is responsible for those five deaths committed by Dent when you think about it (quite literally in one case where Dent was blamed for the murder of a cop that the Joker committed). Dent wasn't in his right mind, and the Joker "pushed him" into it by killing his girlfriend and disfiguring him, breaking his will, giving him the gun, and not so subtly suggesting the targets.
Right, that was always the chief thing that separated him from run of the mill vigilantes and copycats - his refusal to kill. It was the one thing that allowed him to be accepted by at least some of the police and the people despite operating outside the law. Now that's gone.
