Romulan Plasma Torps, Failure?

[Solariabsg25]

On-screen, we really only saw the plasma torpedo used in "Balance of Terror". Although "The Deadly Years" used the same special-effect, they were obviously not as powerful as the original weapons (using Klingon disruptor effects for the impacts on the Enterprise).

Is it possible that the Plasma Weapon was an experiment that simply failed, perhaps because the power expenditure was far too great? The Warbird certainly seemed to be suffering from fuel problems.

Certainly by Next Generation, the Romulans appeared to be using disruptor technology similar to the Klingons.

Any thoughts?

 

[JM1776]

They do arm their hospital complex in Bajoran space with plasma torpedoes.

Perhaps a ground-based energy matrix solves the fuel problems?

 

[Dayton3]

After the battle in "Balance of Terror", Starfleet engineers analyzed the effects of the plasma torpedo and was able to adjust the shields to much better protect the ship from their effects a year later in "The Deadly Years".

 

[Wingsley]

Either that or the Romulan "Balance of Terror" mission was a Romulan experiment, and when the ship never returned, the Romulans concluded that the weapon was either ineffective or too dangerous to handle in combat, so they either dropped it or reduced its power to make it safer.

 

[JuanBolio]

The later torpedoes were probably scaled-down versions of the original, optimized for anti-ship use as opposed to the anti-installation weapons from Balance of Terror.

IRL, plasma weapons are a little silly and impractical.

 

[MarianLH]

What I'd like to know is how a glob of energy snot was changing course after launch. It must have been capable of maneuvering, since otherwise the Enterprise could've just moved sideways a little, instead of backing up.

IIRC, Enterprise was backing up at warp speed, too, so the thing was FTL as well as guided. Despite being a glob of energy snot.


Marian

 

[Robert Simmons]

On-screen, we really only saw the plasma torpedo used in "Balance of Terror". Although "The Deadly Years" used the same special-effect, they were obviously not as powerful as the original weapons (using Klingon disruptor effects for the impacts on the Enterprise).

Is it possible that the Plasma Weapon was an experiment that simply failed, perhaps because the power expenditure was far too great? The Warbird certainly seemed to be suffering from fuel problems.

Certainly by Next Generation, the Romulans appeared to be using disruptor technology similar to the Klingons.

Any thoughts?

"The Deadly Years" was stock footage from "Balance Of Terror" and recyled as a threat mechanism in the story..which I think was handled rather poorly. The Romulan plasma was their heavy weapon that they relied on heavily prior to that. In story #1 of the Exeter fan mini-series I'm writing, I address the shortcomings of the Romulan plasma tactically in a fleet battle in the story which I think answers your question as to why they are not used later on by the Romulans in later Trek. I think you may find it if interest...and hopefully a entertaining read. I won't ruin the surprise here. But I think the answer you are asking for is elegantly simple and MarionLH has stumbled onto it EXACTLY in his post. In TOS Romulan plasma does not seek, and is only a aim and fire weapon. It is NOT treated the same as the Romulan plasma in Star Fleet Battles which was altered for the sake of game balance.

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=1863367#post1863367

 

[JuanBolio]

What I'd like to know is how a glob of energy snot was changing course after launch. It must have been capable of maneuvering, since otherwise the Enterprise could've just moved sideways a little, instead of backing up.

IIRC, Enterprise was backing up at warp speed, too, so the thing was FTL as well as guided. Despite being a glob of energy snot.


Marian

Not only moving an maneuvering at FTL speeds, but accelerating as well. Chalk it up to Trek Magic.

 

[shipfisher]

I like to think of the the capabilities shown by the romulan weapon in "Balance Of Terror" in terms of a sort of smart plasma. The BoP decloaks (the rom ship is probably only limited to impulse while cloaked - warp-capable cloaks are perhaps bits of 24th century kit) to paint a target with something like a subspace link similar perhaps to a transporter lock. The dual lobe (matter/antimatter) plasma bolt is fired already "linked" to the target, accelerating at warp in similar fashion to a "soliton wave-rider" using energy shed by the plasma, thus having its range limit. I figured on the dual-lobe (perhaps even multi-lobed?) arrangement to provide a triggering mechanism on being forced together on hitting a target - Sulu's reference to a phaser hit detonating it would be like a stir-stick mixing a cocktail (a pretty easy counter-measure which wouldn't help the weapon's service longevity). The weapon might by nested into subspace slightly when deep penetration is required (or some such - place your treknobabble here).

When the "praetor's flagship" fails to return from its glorious mission of conquest, all those associated with the weapon would probably be scape-goated in suitably romulan fashion with the related tech being quickly buried.

 

[Deks]

Not only moving an maneuvering at FTL speeds, but accelerating as well. Chalk it up to Trek Magic.

I would sooner attribute it to being attracted to the energy emissions from a Federation star-ship.
The Romulans were keeping to themselves for the most part and had the cloaking technology to keep an eye on their Federation neighbors ...
Plus given the fact Both the Federation and Romulans were on equal par by the 23rd century, it's not entirely unthinkable to imagine the possibility that the Romulans manipulated energy/subspace fields enough to allow a plasma weapon to track a specific target.
Or they could be sending a directed subspace pulse towards the plasma torpedo which would essentially serve as a 'guide' to it's target.

 

[MarianLH]

But I think the answer you are asking for is elegantly simple and MarionLH has stumbled onto it EXACTLY in his post.

Marian

 

[Unicron]

* shrugs *

A lot of unofficial sources I've seen have suggested the Romulans still use plasma torpedoes, although it's not clear that they have capabilities like those on the ship in BOT. FASA had a few Klingon ships retrofitted with the plasma system as part of the alliance, and Starfleet Command 3 suggests that most other races abandoned research into similar weapons because the plasma must be significantly unstable to produce the type of damage it inflicts. The Klingons do have an ion weapon that works along the same basic principle, but is more stable in exchange for weaker range.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Great thoughts guys, I did think of another theory.

The Romulans at the time possibly didn't realise that Fed ships could combat at Warp Speeds. Expecting to face sublight targets, they designed a weapon that would be unable to be avoided and would annihilate the target with a single shot, a guaranteed ship-killer.

After discovering that Fed ships could out-run plasmas, they decided to down-grade the weapons to a less powerful weapon, which exchanged destructive power for speed and rate-of-fire.

This would also explain their frantic deal to get hold of Klingon ships as a stop-gap.

 

[jolau]

Has anyone seen the Remastered version of "The Deadly Years" yet?
Also, I think the Cardassians found Plasma Torpedoes quite useful during the Dominion War.

Actually, I find the Plasma Torpedo quite useful playing the Federation in "Starfleet Command 2" I usually get the BCF or the DNF at my first opportunity when I play the campaign. I like the fact that Plasma Torpedoes in that game aren't as vulnerable to phaser fire or drone defenses as Drone/Missiles.

 

[shipfisher]

I like your idea for explaining the romulan need for klingon ships in "The Enterprise Incident" solariabsg25. You'd figure no self-respecting rommie would be caught dead in a smelly, old D7 unless it provided a pretty signifigant tactical advantage - an ability to stay cloaked at warp for one thing, which may have been a big limiting factor on the performance of the BoP in "Balance of Terror". A romulan invasion fleet trawling across the neutral zone at impulse wouldn't be quite the same threat as a bunch of invisible D7's warping towards federation space - perhaps the reason why the feddies finally took notice and figured they'd better score a cloaking device.

The plasma torps obviously stayed in use in some form after "Balance of Terror", though they seemed to lose their superweapon status - whether you chalk it up to uprated fed defences or a more refined but less powerful version of the weapon is personal choice, I guess, in the absense of any "canon" explanation of the circumstances.

P.S. I'd like to add that the whole "smart plasma" business is based on my thinking that Kirk and crew would have tried more than just haulin' butt in a reversing straight line while trying to evade the weapon. I'd have my helmsman up for a performance review if safety was no further away than an unused tap on the RCS thrusters.

 

[Robert Simmons]

Great thoughts guys, I did think of another theory.

The Romulans at the time possibly didn't realise that Fed ships could combat at Warp Speeds. Expecting to face sublight targets, they designed a weapon that would be unable to be avoided and would annihilate the target with a single shot, a guaranteed ship-killer.

After discovering that Fed ships could out-run plasmas, they decided to down-grade the weapons to a less powerful weapon, which exchanged destructive power for speed and rate-of-fire.

This would also explain their frantic deal to get hold of Klingon ships as a stop-gap.

The main point in my post was that the Romulans were in sore need of a direct "fire weapon" to negate the shortcomings of the "non-seeking" plasma which could be sidestepped if an opponent ever clued into just stepping out of the way. In Star Fleet Battles this is simply rectified by making the plasma a true "seeking" weapon. Yes I concede that the Feds could keep the range open till the plasma hit them as a means to degrade the plasma like Kirk did in "Balance Of Terror". But I really still say that in SFB the plasma goes at speed 32 while ships can only go speed 31. So you can run away long enough till the plasma has about evaporated minimizing damage to your ship. But if you take away the "seeking / tracking" ability of the torp like as seen in TOS where it was retreated from in a straight line, then you can simply avoid it by stepping one step to the side as it glide right past you. And when a Romulan has an opponent that can do this, then it's time to find another weapon. Thus this is why Romulans later were seen operating "direct fire" weapons as a pre-emptive hedge to prevent this.

The reason the Romulans adopted klingon hulls was to address their need for warp capable ships. Evidently they were offereed and the Romulans accepted. The old addage of..."The enemy of my enemy is my friend"...as far as business and weapon's transactions are concerned. And since the Romulans wanted more capable ships, I think it would be easy for them to choke down their "expansionist" dignity using old klingon hulls till they developed their own indiginous ability to produce warp capable hulls. And having the Klingons share direct fire technology ( read phaers and disruptors...and later photon torpedos as mentioned in TNG 1st season episode "The Neutral Zone"...) makes it alot easier for the Romulans to not be....too humiliated by upgrading their ability to move and shoot against Star Fleet. And this is mutually beneficial in that this also is the same avenue how the Klingons were able to secure Romulan cloaking technology. So there is a mutual exchange that happened here. Each side had what the other wanted. The Klingons wanted the cloak and not the plasma since the plasma has it's limitations against an opponent that can MOVE, and the Romulans after loosing in "BOT" clearly wanted faster more robust ships. I think this exchange was initially a Klingon overture to the Romulans after Kor's loss at the hands of the Organians in "Errand Of Mercy". The Romulans obviously wouldn't have initiated such a dialogue, due to humiliation and wounded pride.....it would lend the impression to the Klingons that he Romulans were weaker due to not having warp technology and direct fire weapons. And with each now having the best what the other has to offer, this increases the collective threat between them to the Federation and Star Fleet. Obviously this desirable to both the Klingons and the Romulans who both have a beef with the Federation.

EDIT: It is rather self evident that if you decouple the tracking ability of the Romulan plasma, you totally gut the Romulan's ability to fight. This is CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD by players of Star FLeet Battles who are avid TOS fans. That is why in Star Fleet Battles that it had to be able to track, or the Romulans were rendered worthless as any serious threat. Anyone who knows something about "Balance Of Terror" should know that episode was based on a WW2 sub-hunting story and that the Romulan plamsa is based off of a WW 2 submarine line of sight torpedo...and thus a line of sight short range weapon. If Kirk while retreating from the plasma in "BOT" simply began turning out away from in front of the torpedo, it would have simply ran past him in a straight line WITHOUT changing course to follow. ( Which lends credance to pointing to the TOS Trek Romulan plasma as a intended short range overkill weapon not intended for long range combat. IT clearly was intended for use against IMMOBILE TARGETS like the Federation Outposts that bordered the Neutral Zone. ) But to have an opponent like Kirks start moving to the side in that episode.....if Gene Roddenbury and crew did that instead....it would gut the drama from the threat of the weapon. After all the Romulans were to be the REALLY BAD GUYS.

 

[Unicron]

The warp capability through the alliance only applies to SFB, though; I'll admit that on a personal level, I'm amazed that a single line of dialogue became such a debate, especially when other evidence in BOT seems to answer the question of whether the Romulans have it.

 

[Tigger]

The later torpedoes were probably scaled-down versions of the original, optimized for anti-ship use as opposed to the anti-installation weapons from Balance of Terror.

I too agree the original plasma torpedoes were meant as anti-installation weapons. The Federation outposts were so well-protected that I imagine there was no way a phaser, disruptor or nuclear impact device could crack them quick enough to not have the outpost blast warnings far and wide.

It was likely never meant for anti-ship combat and the Romulans might very well have fired it off as an act of desperation since it was the only offensive weapon they had aboard.

I would expect the original plan was to have the BoP blow a hole through the Federation picket line to allow their fleet to invade and establish a beachhead before Star Fleet could mobilize to respond. When the Enterprise showed-up and successfully defeated the BoP - as well as warning Star Fleet Command "the Romulans are coming", the Romulans decided to scrub the mission.

 

[MarianLH]

The warp capability through the alliance only applies to SFB, though; I'll admit that on a personal level, I'm amazed that a single line of dialogue became such a debate, especially when other evidence in BOT seems to answer the question of whether the Romulans have it.

We're a bunch of pedants who frequently fail to see the forest for the trees. This to you is news?

But yeah, it's kind of silly to argue that Romulan ships don't have warp drive when their weapons do.

As for SFB, if I understand correctly it wasn't warp drive per se that the Romulans lacked, but rather the advanced "tactical" warp drive that made warp speed combat possible.

I too agree the original plasma torpedoes were meant as anti-installation weapons. The Federation outposts were so well-protected that I imagine there was no way a phaser, disruptor or nuclear impact device could crack them quick enough to not have the outpost blast warnings far and wide.

It was likely never meant for anti-ship combat and the Romulans might very well have fired it off as an act of desperation since it was the only offensive weapon they had aboard.

This doesn't explain why the Enterprise didn't just dodge the shot. There are only two possible ways to interpret that part of the episode:

1) the plasma bolt can turn and follow if the Enterprise tries to move out of its way, or
2) Kirk is a complete moron.


Marian

 

[Unicron]

I think that's correct, although the impression I've gotten (and admittedly my knowledge of the SFB universe is sketchy) is that this advanced warp is roughly what the other major powers have. The Romulans always had contemporary warp in FASA.