Me too.
As for my opinion? In here, I'm just Bon the poster (and if you act up, T'Bonz the mod.)
*
And don't get me started on how they fucked up the female Romulan Commander.
Women and positons of power in TOS
- Thread starter borgboy
- Start date
Me too.
As for my opinion? In here, I'm just Bon the poster (and if you act up, T'Bonz the mod.)
*
And don't get me started on how they fucked up the female Romulan Commander.
I do agree that women in TOS were often shcked to the side by the powers that be. Unfortunately it was a product of the times gladly left in the past as we matured as a society beyond it.
I still remember as a kid hearing how women as a whole scored better in NASA's flight physical requirements than the 7 original Astronauts chosen. Even as a kid I found myself wondering then why werent some women chosen.
We often shoot ourselves in the foot when we behave out of ignorance rather than doing what is right. Thankfully for the most part we do tend to learn and grow out of such nonsense...but we need to remain vigilant
One nitpick I do have to disagree with calling Commodores Stone (played by Percy Rodriguez) and Commodore Jose Mendez WASP's...Stone was hardly a WASP and Commodore Mendez was supposed to be of latino descent.
Commodore Stone, commanding Starbase 11
Commodore Mendez, later in command of Starbase 11
Both were former starship captains.
To the original topic though, I really wished they had shown women in a better, stronger light as captains and higher rank officers. I must've imagined it and im gonna keep looking but I swear I rememebr seeing a woman either in Red or Gold sporting a lt. cmdr. rank on her sleeve in a funeral, briefing room, cooridor scene. She was an extra but i couldve swore I saw it.
Ill keep looking, perhaps I am mistaken..the worse thing that happens is I get to watch more episodes :P
Wasn't Dr. Ann Mulhall a Lt. Comander?
She does seem to wear the rank
I still remember as a kid hearing how women as a whole scored better in NASA's flight physical requirements than the 7 original Astronauts chosen. Even as a kid I found myself wondering then why werent some women chosen.
We often shoot ourselves in the foot when we behave out of ignorance rather than doing what is right. Thankfully for the most part we do tend to learn and grow out of such nonsense...but we need to remain vigilant
One nitpick I do have to disagree with calling Commodores Stone (played by Percy Rodriguez) and Commodore Jose Mendez WASP's...Stone was hardly a WASP and Commodore Mendez was supposed to be of latino descent.
Commodore Stone, commanding Starbase 11
Commodore Mendez, later in command of Starbase 11
Both were former starship captains.
To the original topic though, I really wished they had shown women in a better, stronger light as captains and higher rank officers. I must've imagined it and im gonna keep looking but I swear I rememebr seeing a woman either in Red or Gold sporting a lt. cmdr. rank on her sleeve in a funeral, briefing room, cooridor scene. She was an extra but i couldve swore I saw it.
Ill keep looking, perhaps I am mistaken..the worse thing that happens is I get to watch more episodes :P
Wasn't Dr. Ann Mulhall a Lt. Comander?
She does seem to wear the rank
Last edited:
One nitpick I do have to disagree with calling Commodores Stone (played by Percy Rodriguez) and Commodore Jose Mendez WASP's...Stone was hardly a WASP and Commodore Mendez was supposed to be of latino descent.
Commodore Stone, commanding Starbase 11
Commodore Mendez, later in command of Starbase 11
Both were former starship captains.
Fortunately, I don't have to cop to Mendez, because I didn't mention him.
I'd written the other five, labeled them WASPs, then remembered, Didn't Stone say he was a starship captain, too? Great! There's another one. I added him to the list, and forgot to remove WASPs, since it was no longer applicable. That's a good catch, but it was a simple editorial oversight.
[I've been terrible with the little things in this thread.]
I can add Mendez, though, and change "WASPs" to "red-blooded males." So much for the idea that we see "very few" starship captains in TOS. Seven of them, and fully a third of the active starship commanders, are shown on screen.
And still, we see no females in that role.
pookha said:
Even if we grant that Number One was the permanent X-O (and I've not meant to deny that she could have been, but instead presented reasons from within the canon why she may well not have been—none of which have been refuted), permanent X-O of a starship does not equate to permanent command of a starship. Pike was gone. Number One was their most experienced officer. Yet she doesn't succeed Pike as captain of the Enterprise. Instead, a much younger Kirk gets the slot. [We can assume this because in "Mirror, Mirror," a parallel universe, Kirk succeeds to the slot via assassination of Pike. One may assume that he directly succeeds Pike in the main universe via more mundane means.]
That makes her a homicidal maniac, not a liar with her every breath. Clearly she could operate sophisticated equipment and concoct elaborate plans. You're making assumptions that allow you to come to the more palatable, rather than the more likely, conclusion.
I tend to create scenarios employing only the canon ... but as some of you had gone outside it to the costume department (
) and Roddenberry's possible use of British naval ranks which may extend back to the Enterprise era, I felt justified in easily countering those with the story creator's stated admission that the very comment most in dispute here was meant as I've interpreted it.One last time: I don't believe this Old Boys' Club excluded women from command entirely, or even much. Starbases ... outposts ... transports ... freighters ... scouts ... gunboats ... destroyers ... frigates ... light cruisers. There's little or no evidence to indicate women didn't hold those commands in the TOS era, though there's definitely a dearth confirming it. As three posters have pointed out, the highest-ranked female officer we see in this entire period is a lieutenant commander wearing red (and perhaps one other sporting gold, if another poster's memory serves him well), so it's obviously quite rare for a woman to reach into the higher ranks.
But, like it or not, it's apparent to me both from the canon and the creator's own assertion that, in the TOS era, starships were the last bastion of prestige and achievement unjustly denied them.
Your mileage may vary.
Last edited:
JM, i've got to ask, which woman pissed in your weetos that you've got such a down on the entire gender?
re-read one of your posts where you diss woman as not being allowed to command ships and replace 'woman' or 'women' with 'jews' or 'asians' and look how you come across.
you seem really mysoganistic...
re-read one of your posts where you diss woman as not being allowed to command ships and replace 'woman' or 'women' with 'jews' or 'asians' and look how you come across.
you seem really mysoganistic...
I don't think he's being mysoginistic at all, he's questioning why TOS did not have female captains. My assertion is that we have no evidence that they didn't.
JM - to clarify, my comment about the lack of a Lieutenant Commander rank in Enterprise simply came about because you asked if any woman in the Enterprise (NX-01 and not NCC-1701) crew held a rank above Lieutenant. The answer is, of course, yes, since there were only three people above that rank (Archer, T'Pol and Tucker) and one of them was a woman.
JM - to clarify, my comment about the lack of a Lieutenant Commander rank in Enterprise simply came about because you asked if any woman in the Enterprise (NX-01 and not NCC-1701) crew held a rank above Lieutenant. The answer is, of course, yes, since there were only three people above that rank (Archer, T'Pol and Tucker) and one of them was a woman.
Well I agree for the most part with JM, however we have to keep in mind the evidence we have are from the experiences from one ship over 79 adventures. The universe in which they dwelled was sorely incomplete.
We never really saw the Earth itself save for a brief glimpse of Movave City in a Talosian illusion given to Pike.
So it is safe to assume given later established history that women were in positions of authority and had achieved higher rank. We just have no solid evidence of it from the actual source material given the short sightedness of the period in which it was made.
It was clear with the inclusion of Number One that GR intended to show an expanded role of power for women but such a thing was obviously shown as a threat to certian network types.
So we are left with assumtions based on how we choose to see their world. I choose to see it as there were quite a few women in position of authority, Admirals, Captian's and command ranks...hey I even see women who kick butt like the Yoeman from the Apple and Yoemen Tamara who stands guard, looking real mean with a sonic disruptor over Eminiar women to prevent them from stepping into a disintergration chamber leading me to visualize female red shirts. Though we didnt see any I think it is also safe to assume Starfleet also used women security officers....given the frightening loss of their male counterparts it would seem they would be vitally needed. :P
I extrapolate this very much in the way we draw conclusions about an All Andorian Crew, or All Telerite crew aboard starships (hey the vulcan's had em)....so if the Yeomans can kick butt like that....it stands to reason their would be other highly specialized females in the security branch.
*Shrugs* Anyways I think for me it is easier to see that, it gives me a great deal of hope that such material can outlast and even mature faster than the society that spawned it
I am sure the intention was never to deliberately show women were not equals in Starfleet.
To be honest whether they were or werent, Janice Lester sooooo did not qualify for such a chance....Merrik failed (in his fifth year) ...so Lester would've too. :P
ALso let me toss my hat into the 'I do not believe JM is being mysogninistic' too. I think given the evidence he is making quite few valid points. Though I tend to lean to the assertion that the show has no evidence that there was not any of that rank.
Peace.
We never really saw the Earth itself save for a brief glimpse of Movave City in a Talosian illusion given to Pike.
So it is safe to assume given later established history that women were in positions of authority and had achieved higher rank. We just have no solid evidence of it from the actual source material given the short sightedness of the period in which it was made.
It was clear with the inclusion of Number One that GR intended to show an expanded role of power for women but such a thing was obviously shown as a threat to certian network types.
So we are left with assumtions based on how we choose to see their world. I choose to see it as there were quite a few women in position of authority, Admirals, Captian's and command ranks...hey I even see women who kick butt like the Yoeman from the Apple and Yoemen Tamara who stands guard, looking real mean with a sonic disruptor over Eminiar women to prevent them from stepping into a disintergration chamber leading me to visualize female red shirts. Though we didnt see any I think it is also safe to assume Starfleet also used women security officers....given the frightening loss of their male counterparts it would seem they would be vitally needed. :P
I extrapolate this very much in the way we draw conclusions about an All Andorian Crew, or All Telerite crew aboard starships (hey the vulcan's had em)....so if the Yeomans can kick butt like that....it stands to reason their would be other highly specialized females in the security branch.
*Shrugs* Anyways I think for me it is easier to see that, it gives me a great deal of hope that such material can outlast and even mature faster than the society that spawned it
I am sure the intention was never to deliberately show women were not equals in Starfleet.
To be honest whether they were or werent, Janice Lester sooooo did not qualify for such a chance....Merrik failed (in his fifth year) ...so Lester would've too. :P
ALso let me toss my hat into the 'I do not believe JM is being mysogninistic' too. I think given the evidence he is making quite few valid points. Though I tend to lean to the assertion that the show has no evidence that there was not any of that rank.
Peace.
Yes they were, but i was speaking of the physicals given by NASA in its earliest incarnations. Women over all tested better at dealing with the effects of zero G and high altitude manuvers than the combat proven test pilots.
Kinda makes you wonder how much better our Air Force, Navy and Army Air Corps(WWII) might've done if we had let the women fight besides us as equals
Its a fact that always stayed with me
Looking around I found this article
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10125596
How they tested is mentioned a few times too in there
My wife finds your comment amusing, but hardly worth addressing.
I'll do so anyway.
If Jews and Asians were prevented from commanding starships in this period, well, my posts would applicable there, too ... but male minorities are well-represented by the aforementioned Commodores Stone and Mendez. Women? Nope, no matter how the gallery tries to tapdance around it.
What part of "they didn't command in this period" (which I do assert) vis-a-vis "they're not in the least capable of commanding" (which I would never say and have never said) are you having trouble distinguishing?
I "seem really misogynistic" to you. I don't see anyone else hauling out such labels—not that they'd be legitimate even then.
The idea that one can replace a word with another and therefore ascribe a mentality thereby is specious at best and asinine at worst.
It's not how I come across, but rather how the era was clearly portrayed.
The fact that prejudice existed in the 1960's and was therefore reflected in the 2260's does not make me a misogynist, but rather a realist. Note that T'Bonz seems to agree (though I add "seems to" because I'll not presume to speak for her) that women were not commanding starships in this period, and chalks that up to societal prejudice in the era it was written, as do I—which I've attempted, via the canon, to reduce even further to an Old Boys' Club hanging on to starship command as a last bastion, rather than saying "it's pervasive." Is she now a misogynist (and therefore, because she's a woman, self-loathing), too?
Your lack of ability to differentiate between misogyny and an objective reading of the facts is not my responsibility, captcalhoun.
The main difference between my take and that of my distinguished opposition in this thread is that I for the most part am employing exegesis (a reading of the text/canon) while they are using eisegesis (reading into the text/canon). While that leaves my position inherently the stronger one from a scholarly perspective, in my opinion, it does not guarantee I'm correct.
Again, Lester might well have been full of it. There's plenty of other evidence, though, besides that.
As I've said time and again, your mileage may vary.
What part of that didn't you understand?
Last edited:
One would imagine that female space jockeys might well be the future top guns—though, of course, such results speak only to human capabilities.
I have no problem with badass babes protecting me.
Yes they were, but i was speaking of the physicals given by NASA in its earliest incarnations. Women over all tested better at dealing with the effects of zero G and high altitude manuvers than the combat proven test pilots.
Kinda makes you wonder how much better our Air Force, Navy and Army Air Corps(WWII) might've done if we had let the women fight besides us as equals
Its a fact that always stayed with me
Looking around I found this article
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10125596
How they tested is mentioned a few times too in there
I suspect it was a question of flight experience which, in my opinion, is a lot more valuable.
Those ladies were far more gracious than I would have been in their place.
I'd have been livid.
Yep. You've nailed it.
It's a reality that there was prejudice in the 1960s. I lived it as a child and somewhat as a teen. It affected what was shown on Star Trek and I see no need to make up stuff about the show as to why there weren't female captains. There weren't female captains because tptb at the time couldn't deal with that.
Except for Roddenberry. Although we've discussed his less admirable traits, time and again in the forum, he DID seem to be one of the few men of the era who didn't have a problem with seeing women in charge of stuff and in that respect, he was ahead of his time.
Yes they were, but i was speaking of the physicals given by NASA in its earliest incarnations. Women over all tested better at dealing with the effects of zero G and high altitude manuvers than the combat proven test pilots.
Kinda makes you wonder how much better our Air Force, Navy and Army Air Corps(WWII) might've done if we had let the women fight besides us as equals
Its a fact that always stayed with me
Looking around I found this article
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10125596
How they tested is mentioned a few times too in there
I suspect it was a question of flight experience which, in my opinion, is a lot more valuable.
Dont be too sure, think about it my friend. These women chosen were the ones flying the recently built bombers and fighters from the factories to the rear areas like Pearl or airbases in the states.
They test flew the planes while the men fought in them. During the fifties many of these women were bush pilots in areas not too heavily populated and had just as many flight hours as the men did.
They tested out the same if not higher in dealing with stress, and well seeing as the Mercury capsules never were to face heavy fire, I am curious to what experience the men had that was over that of these women??
The Soviets seem to see a woman's flight experience was just as valueable?
A Pity we didn't in my opinion. This is in my opinion a glaring example of the mindset in the sixties of why women were not shown in TOS in positions of Authority.
God think about the Kennedy White House..called Camelot...the working husband, the doting housewife First Lady. The children, dogs...that was the mental mindset of our societal roles at the time.
Last edited:
who mourns for adonis
SPOCK: Cut power, Mister Sulu. Lieutenant, we must restore communications with the landing party.
UHURA: I'm working, sir, but I can't do anything with this.
SPOCK: Oh?
UHURA: I might be able to rig up a subspace bypass circuit.
But if there was some law or regulation that barred women from starship command, she wouldn't have been qualified. It seems clear on that basis that sex is not a qualification for starship command.
You're right. Obviously, if she was senior enough to get her own command she wouldn't be serving as XO.
That (acting XO) seems like a reach. Wouldn't Pike have remarked upon it to Boyce if his exec had been killed or incapacitated? Anyway, if she were not qualified for command (by gender or otherwise) she still would not have succeeded to XO if there were any other qualified officer aboard.
It was not an assumption of anything, just a speculative explanation for the fact that a lieutenant was serving as XO under a captain.
I'm with you on the starship thing. But command is command; smaller vessels would go to less senior officers, but the qualifications would be similar. Certainly letting a woman command a destroyer and then telling her, however successful she may have been, that she could not compete with her male counterparts for command of a larger vessel is ridiculous.
It could well be the case that no female had yet been assigned as a starship CO, but that would be circumstantial. All I'm saying is that there was no official prohibition on women commanding starships. That would have rendered Number One unqualified for command and she would not be eligible to serve as second in command. If such a rule was in force and she was still serving as XO, the next male officer in rank would have taken command when Pike was abducted, bypassing Number One, which would be absurd.
Actually they didn't know what the qualifications for astronaut should be and many different groups were proposed besides the female pilots: submariners, divers, acrobats and so on. But Pres. Eisenhower wanted military test pilots, so that's what they got.
--Justin
Last edited:
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Ah, but how do you know Number One was even still on the Enterprise by the time Kirk succeeds Pike in either Universe. For that matter, how do you know the Mirror Universe even had a Number One. It seems to me, one can't very well equate what happens in the Mirror Universe with "our" universe, especially considering the women seem to be treated with a lot less respect. What happens in the mirror universe happens in the mirror universe, nowhere elese.
Ah, the regular falacy of "if someone is insane, that someone must also be stupid and incapable of using any sophistication." Insane does not stupid or incompetent make. The two have nothing to do with each other. The fact that she thinks Kirk wants to kill her, wanted to kill her, and only fear kept him from doing so, should pretty much tell anyone her idea of reality is quite a bit different from actual reality. It automatically brings any other claim she makes in question.
At that point, the way T'Pau is treated, and that nobody, especially the men, find any fault with Number One assuming command, how no female Vulcan wishing to be a starship captain could ever be stopped by an "Old Boy's club intimidation and insults", as someone mentioned - they'd bounce off of her like bullets bounce off of Superman - and when she finds out they deliberately are not promoting her to captain of a Starship even if she's clearly better and senior of a male that did get such a captaincy, she would step to her government and they'd throw their weight around in the council and not long after the whole "Old Boy's Club" would be out of their jobs, far trumps any claim of a homicidal loon to me.
Uh, no, that myth really should go out the window. The network was okay with Number One, what they were not okay with was that the actress playing Number One was Gene's girlfriend/mistress.
well, as far as i'm concerned, Erika Hernandez commanded the NX-02 and Madge Sinclair's character commanded the Saratoga, so i see no reason why women can't command ships.
in fact, i hope we see a woman commanding a ship or a female admiral in Star Trek next May so we can end this once and for all.
better still, two women, one a human and one an alien.
in fact, i hope we see a woman commanding a ship or a female admiral in Star Trek next May so we can end this once and for all.
better still, two women, one a human and one an alien.
Oh really? Wow this I did not know. I can seriously see their reservations but wow I had not heard GR tanked the Female XO simply because Majel couldnt play the part.
That would've been a landmark role for Women then if he had simple recast it. Not to mention added a nice new depth for Trek and for Kirk had they been friends like Kirk was with Gary Mitchell.
Aww well missed opportunities again.
Similar threads
