The Tudors

[Temis the Vorta]

Well I finished off the S1 DVDs and I guess I don't have to worry about spoilers from you folks who've seen it thru S2 (considering the historical inaccuracies, maybe I should worry? ). Whaddya think? Just how off base is it historically anyway?

My take: Enjoyable enough but not quite up to other series level of historical storytelling - Carnivale, John Adams, Deadwood, Rome and Mad Men all have something in common, they utterly convince me of the authenticity of their historical setting. But The Tudors feels a little off. The people seem too modern, and I'm not sure why, perhaps its because too many of them are too conventionally good looking, of the sort that you'd expect to see walking down the street in LA but not 16th C England. Or it could be the dialogue (not particularly inspired). Or the acting? When Catherine of Aragon is on-screen, I believe it's the 16th C, not so much at other times. The plague episode certainly felt authentic to the times.

The in-your-face sex is pretty stupid, it's just standard for premium cable at this point and adds little to the story. They calm down considerably on that score towards the end of the season anyway.

My favorite plotline isn't Heny & Anne so far - it's Thomas More and Thomas Cromwell. Pretty funny seeing More yak about how he's going to burn heretics right and left, with no idea about Cromwell's real sympathies. I've always liked James Frain (long before his 24 stint), and even though his performance is very interior compared with the flashier roles, I enjoy it.

More is certainly portrayed differently than the famous movie A Man for All Seasons which makes him out to be some kind of saint and certainly not a heretic-burner/oppressor of religious freedom. I'd imagine that The Tudors' portrayal is more accurate, right? That scene where he burned the guy at the stake and everyone else was just walking away was plenty cold, wow! At least he had the cojones to stick around. More's portrayal is another element that I find very authentic to the times, in that he seems intelligent and sensitive yet has attitudes that modern people would find reprehensible.

Henry comes off pretty well so far, not an overbearing spoiled egomaniac lunatic who just wants his way and makes up reasons why he's justified. His religious views are presented as authentic and not just a rationalization for his ego or lust, and he seems genuinely in love with Anne. Not sure how this is going to square with future events - it won't make sense unless he does have a sense of his own justification to do pretty much anything he pleases, with a large dose of egomania driving his actions, not to mention self-pity at being "betrayed."

What's up with the Thomas Tallis subplot? Just trying to show their diversity by having gay themes? The problem here is, the guy is boring. Do they do anything with him? (I know his buddy Wyatt becomes "important" to the story in S2, too bad for him.)

 

[Dorian Thompson]

How inaccurate is it historically? Ohhhh booooooyyyyyy....you asked. The Tudors is highly entertaining, but I'd enjoy it more if it were straight fiction and I didn't know just how inaccurate it is. As far as Thomas Tallis is concerned, there's no clear historical evidence that he was homosexual or bisexual. It appears to just be something they threw in to spice up the show. Don't ask me why. I agree that the man is boring.

First--Henry had two sisters. Margaret was his older sister. She was married off to the King of Scotland when Henry was still a young boy. Her granddaughter was Mary Queen of Scots, executed by (reluctant) order of Elizabeth I, Henry and Anne's daugther. Mary Queen of Scots' son would be the future James I of England, whom Elizabeth named as her successor since she had no children of her own. James was the first joint ruler of England and Scotland, which is how it would be from then on. In this Tudor reality, he won't exist.

Let's see, Henry's younger sister was named Mary. She was married off to an older king who died a few months after their wedding, but it was the king of France, not the king of Portugal. The king of Portugal at this time, John, was a young twenty something man. He was also the nephew of Catherine of Aragon. It is true, though, that Mary Tudor married Charles Brandon after the French king's death, much to Henry's chagrin. Mary's granddaughter was the ill fated Jane Grey, whom (Henry's son) Edward tried to put on the throne as his successor after his death in 1553. Jane was sixteen. She was (reluctantly) executed by order of Mary I, Henry and Catherine's daughter.

What else? Catherine of Aragon (though I adore Maria Doyle Kennedy's interpretation of the character) had pale skin and reddish blond hair. Many historians now believe that she did sleep with Arthur, Henry's older brother, when she was married to him but that no one at the time cared because both Henry and his daddy, Henry VII, wanted to hold on to Catherine's dowry from Ferdinand. There were originally two dispensations given by Rome--one in case Catherine and Arthur had done the deed, and the other if they hadn't. It was all hypocritical b.s. Katherine never stated publicly that she and Arthur hadn't slept together until Henry dragged her into that trial and she was trying to protect her daughter Mary's right to inherit the throne. She didn't want Mary declared illegitimate, and Henry wouldn't have given a damn if Catherine and Arthur had done it while swinging from the rafters she'd given him a son.

Henry's bastard son with Bessie Blount, Henry Fitzroy, died when he was 17, not when he was a toddler. Cardinal Wolsey did not commit suicide. He died on the way back to London to face charges.

There are more inaccuracies, but those are fine to start.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Royal portrait of Catherine of Aragon, painted when she was seventeen and still wearing a mourning dress.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I've also noticed that this series treats Cromwell a lot better than the conniving little backstabbing weasel he's often depicted as.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Oh, Cromwell was a weasel and a half. He connived to get Anne on the throne, but he sure threw her to the wolves and plotted her death with those false charges fast enough when Henry wanted to be rid of her. Henry was handsome and kind and charismatic--when he got what he wanted. When he didn't get his son, he changed. That much the show gets right and then some.

All in all, I think England would have been better off if Arthur hadn't caught tuberculosis and died after he married Catherine. It probably would have become a Protestant country eventually, anyway. Protestant literature was pouring into the country anyway during the 16th century. Henry turned out to be such a lunatic because he was spoiled rotten all the time he was growing up by his grandmother Margaret. It was Arthur who was prepared to be king. Also, Arthur wasn't "very ill" like Catherine in the series said ("your brother was very young....and very ill....").

There's no historical evidence to support that Arthur was sickly his whole (short) life--not so sick that he couldn't get it up and have sex. Only one portrait exists of him. He was a thin, stringy kid while Henry was broad shouldered and tall, but that doesn't necessarily mean Arthur was too sick to do it. It just means he was thin. Everything that still survives that was written about his birth suggests that Arthur was a healthy, robust little baby. He just got sick in the middle of winter is all and died of tuberculosis, or pneumonia, or some other viral infection. It happened to a lot of people during the middle ages. People wanted to believe Catherine because she was so beloved at the time, and historians wanted to believe her, but a lot of respected historians don't anymore. They don't think she was a duplicitous person, just caught up in circumstances and the restrictions placed on women at the time. I agree with them; it doesn't make any sense when you think about it. Catherine's own confessor said that she had sex with Arthur. It's just that her parents still wanted the alliance with England, and Henry VII still wanted her dowry, and there were the two dispensations from Rome so she could marry Henry, one in case she'd done the deed, and one if she hadn't. The court waited for weeks to declare little Henry the new prince of Wales in case Catherine had gotten pregnant before Arthur died. Why would they do that? Why would she do it, if she were still a virgin (virginity which would help her become betrothed to little 11 year old Henry and bypass Rome's restrictions on "incest") unless there was a chance she could have been pregnant? It really doesn't make sense when you think about it. They weren't married for very long, but I'm sure she and Arthur hit the sheets at least a few times. It would have been their "duty" to get started trying to conceive the next heir to the English throne.

Catherine was pushed into that lie. That's what I think. Then that dirt bag Henry used that obscure verse in Leviticus to justify dissolving the marriage. If he'd had a houseful of sons with her, he wouldn't have cared. Jackass. The fact that he threw his beloved Anne Boleyn to the wolves, too, proves what a duplicitous, unreligioius jerk he was when the shit hit the fan. Catherine and Anne were his victims. That much, the show gets right.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Oh, I wouldn't blame Catherine at all for lying. She was trying to protect her daughter and being treated hideously unfairly.

I'm looking forward to those S2 DVDs, particularly how they handle Cromwell (Just how much of a weasel? It was implied that he had a conscience about throwing Woolsey under the bus), More (does he have any awareness that he kinda had it coming?) and Henry (which they did do some foreshadowing on - the way he treated his sister and friend for defying him - that shows he has a nasty dictatorial streak).

 

[sidious618]

I'm a big Tudors fan. I love the show a lot. It doesn't feel quite as authentic as the others you listed, although I only enjoyed Carnivale more, because it does have a very small budget.

As for historical inacurracies there are a lot but from the beginning the story was always about power corrupting than about trying to be accurate. Michael Hirst that from the start, IIRC.

The second season is great and it will address many of your concerns.

By the way, how awesome was the ending segment of the finale with the play, Woolsey in the cell and then the ride into the country? I love that.

 

[T J]

Looking forward to season 3. Can't wait to see how much weight Henry gains. In real life by this time (the execution of Ann) he was already in his forty's and very fat. I know he wouldn't be the hunk of the show but it would be more accurate. Fascinating time in history.

 

[Katrine]

Had Arthur lived, Henry would have been for the Church. Ironic is it not?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Oh that's right, Katrine! I forgot. There was talk of Henry entering the church and becoming a bishop or cardinal or something when he grew up. They had a lot of power in the church. I totally forgot about that. Still, I think protestantism would have taken hold eventually, but that's just my opinion. It might not have been during that century, but eventually.

Yeah, Henry should have started getting chunky by the time he had Anne executed.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

And Henry shouldn't look so much younger than Catherine.

 

[CaptainCanada]

More's kind of a complicated historical character; he was admirably devout, with both the plusses and negatives of the time; he rooted out heretics ruthlessly, while at the same time he refused to compromise himself to save his life, which was a lot less common (in A Man For All Seasons, for exmaple, they emphasize the latter; since persecuting heretics was basically accepted by everybody at the time, him doing that really just marked him as a man of his time).

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Definitely. He was younger than her, but not that much younger. The actors are 15 years apart, I believe. In real life, they were about five and a half years apart. Don't get me wrong. Maria Doyle Kennedy was my favorite actress on the show for the dignity she brought to Catherine, but she is FAR too dark and Latina looking. Catherine didn't look like that. My problem with casting wasn't her; it was Jonathan Rhys-Meyers as Henry. He looks like a kid.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Portrait of Henry at age 40 by Joos Van Cleeve. This would have been 2 years before Elizabeth was born. He really started getting porky after that.

 

[broberfett]

I enjoyed the show. It may not be perfect, but it is way better than standard network tv fare. Henry was definitely a totally power corrupted psycho.

 

[AJBryant]

As hawt as the actress doing Ann Boleyn is, I can't bring myself to watch the show. The historian in me keeps trying to make me vomit.

It is right up there (down there?) with "Braveheart" for wilfull raping of the historical record.


Tony

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Implying that Anne and George had been planning to poison Catherine was a bit over the top. Anne had her faults, but she wasn't the raging bitch she's made out to be in a lot of productions. Henry would have divorced Catherine to marry somebody else to try for a son whether Anne came along or not.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

My experience with TV series/movies/books is that Catherine usually comes off very well. It might be fun to summarize how we see these characters based on previous iterations of this story:

Henry VIII - Spoiled lunatic delusional pyscho. Plus, he's fat.

Catherine of Aragon - Class act all the way. Unlike everyone else in this sordid tale, comes off as well as could be expected. I almost called her Catherine of Aragorn, which may say something about how she's been portrayed (or where Tolkein got the name from?)

Anne Boleyn - Scheming wench who gets in way above her head. Sometimes portrayed sympathetically, sometimes more in the "she deserved it" mode.

Anne's uncle, father and brother - Little better than family pimps. Blergh.

Cardinal Woolsey - Competent administrator and if he's also a weaselly political type, well, who else is going to have gotten that gig? Usually portrayed sympathetically at his downfall - he worked hard, he didn't deserve it.

Thomas Cromwell - Disgusting backstabbing little weasel. Interested a lot less in religious reformation than in personal advancement. Deserved it in spades.

Thomas More - Noble martyr for truth & justice. History apparently has chosen not to hold the whole burning-people-at-the-stake routine against him and decided he didn't deserve the fate he'd imposed on others. Interesting. I guess Utopia goes a long way.

Moving on to The Tudors, the Next Generation:

Bloody Mary - Narrow-minded and sort of stupid, but not really responsible for the horrors perpetrated in her name. Terrible leader, in way above her head, really through no fault of her own.

Elizabeth I - Neurotic headcase but a great leader. Inherited daddy's egomania.

 

[Nerroth]

I only got into the series recently - they are still showing season 2 here (this week goes as far as More's execution), and I picked up the season 1 DVD last week, and mowed through it.


I have to say that despite its faults, I think it's a fantastic series - and I' not just saying that because it's made here in Ireland, with Irish and Canadian money!

(I know someone who was an extra in one of the outdoor scenes - I don't think that scene has been broadcast here yet.)


And the soundtrack is amazing - especially that played during the final act of season 1.

I think that Sam Neill was outstanding as Wolsey - and for the man himself, I wonder if those who go to what was once known as Cardinal College have much to say about the man who helped establish it...

 

[Trippy]

Historical inaccuracies aside (I wasn't expecting a fact based show) for a drama in and of itselt...I love it! I devoured my Season One dvds and just finished Season Two...fantastic! Anne's exucution (hardly a spoiler )was filmed and acted to perfection...ya, I cried (I was always sympathetic to Anne in history anyway...for all of Henry's blustering to get a son, it's her daughter who will rule). Although I missed Sam Neill in the second season, Jeremy Northram had an increased role...gonna miss him now too

I look forward to next season and the Seymours!