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Issues with DS9

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Can't we all just get along??? :)
The shows were different and really their goal at the end of the day was to entertain and make money. DS9 entertained and made money differently than the rest, which is fine and which is why it is my favorite series. But hey they others were fine too...
 
In the Pale Moonlight is one of if not the Best Trek show made. It delves deep into the mind of a man that ultimately is willing to sacrifice his morals in order to achieve a greater victory. Picard would have never done it, Janeway would have instantly taken a side and stuck to it no matter what. Archer would have tried to talk the Romulans into it, to no end, and Kirk would have just punched the Romulan in the mouth and told him to grow a pair.

But it's not like ITPM is some kind of "wow, great discovery, no one's ever thought of this" kind of story. That's an old, old story, and in fact leaders of men do it every day in the modern world, they were doing it 100 years ago, and a 1000 years ago. Just because Trek never did it doesn't make it a great episode. I find the episode dull, obvious, and heavy-handed. New to Trek, sure. An exciting idea, well executed--eh...not so much.

What might have made it more special would have been a little more debate--the choices you listed for Picard, Janeway, Archer, and Kirk are valid ones, folks make those exact choices every day. Why not really go over what the options might be, the pros and cons. I don't agree with Sisko's choice...maybe. I'm not sure--but the episode didn't really do anything all that interesting with it, it was just kind of for shock value--"wow, never thought Trek'd go there, cool!" Boring.
 
^ He wasn't that bad. Besides, there were many worse things in Trek to pick on than Vic Fontaine.
 
#1 - Ferengi are CLOWNS - turning ST into Lost in Space

maybe them weren't as threatening as GR had intended but the Ferengi in seasons 1-2 of TNG were at least not a joke

#2 - The music - think grand not MUSAK which was Berman's edict that still has me saying WTF?

#3 - Vic Fontaine - Why WHY WHYYYYY

#4 - Serialized war - this isn't as bad as nuBSG but the beginnings of soap opera were planted

#5 - 110# woman tossing 220# men around like rag dolls - come on

#6 - Too much technobabble and talking in general


and the list goes on

saddly because there was alot to like and some good actors but once you throw in Rom or Zek ----- well you get the point

and NO way GR would go for this


Another shit list, in my opinion. Especially since a similar one had not been made for TNG, ENT or TOS - all shows that starred white males.

Another point that I agree with. Let's face it DS9 was Paramounts "Black Sheep", but TPTB fail to realize it that DS9 was a very good show.
 
#1 - Ferengi are CLOWNS - turning ST into Lost in Space

maybe them weren't as threatening as GR had intended but the Ferengi in seasons 1-2 of TNG were at least not a joke

#2 - The music - think grand not MUSAK which was Berman's edict that still has me saying WTF?

#3 - Vic Fontaine - Why WHY WHYYYYY

#4 - Serialized war - this isn't as bad as nuBSG but the beginnings of soap opera were planted

#5 - 110# woman tossing 220# men around like rag dolls - come on

#6 - Too much technobabble and talking in general


and the list goes on

saddly because there was alot to like and some good actors but once you throw in Rom or Zek ----- well you get the point

and NO way GR would go for this


Another shit list, in my opinion. Especially since a similar one had not been made for TNG, ENT or TOS - all shows that starred white males.

Erm...I'm not sure you can interpret the making of this list in and of itself as a racist thing, and as a mod, I have to tell you that it's out of line to imply racist motivations where none can be absolutely demonstrated.

Besides, it's pretty easy to blow his intended 'points' out of the sky on their own merit, or lack thereof. How about going that route?

Thanks.
 
Frankly, what amazes me most are all of these self-appointed experts who presume to know every detail of what Gene Roddenberry's 'vision' was...and what does and doesn't contradict it.

Nevermind that Gene's own widow was apparently not nearly as incensed as all of these self-appointed 'experts', having agreed to appear in a few DS9 episodes herself.

And more to the point, nevermind the fact that the tone, mindset and presentation of TNG contradicted the tone, mindset and presentation of TOS on any number of levels....despite the fact that Gene himself was involved in both of those shows.

The fact is that if anyone contradicted Gene Roddenberry's so-called 'vision' (assuming there even WAS a vision, past getting really, really rich and doing as many drugs as possible), it was Gene Roddenberry.

TOS presented a view of the future that was NOT utopia. Our heroes were flawed individuals who argued and fought with each other while bending the rules all over the place, and who never pretended to know everything...and they were flying around the galaxy to explore. TOS is chock full of gray areas of morality, errors in judgment, and learning from mistakes.

TNG, in contrast, presented a crew full of perfect, 'evolved' beings. They were always right, did everything by the book, and they never disagreed with each other. And their mission was not, apparently, to explore, but instead to run around the galaxy spreading their 'enlightened' way of thinking like missionaries for secular humanism or something. TNG is chock full of black and white decisions, flawless judgment, and mistakes made only by the unenlightened, unwashed masses of aliens, most of whom couldn't wait to be be set on the right course by our perfect heroes come to rescue them from themselves.

IMO, Gene Roddenberry sold HIMSELF out with TNG. So any accusations of anyone else selling him out after that are moot. That particular horse had long ago left the barn by the time DS9 reached our TV screens.

Whatever 'vision' Roddenberry had for TOS got sold down the river in favor of a pile of 1980's PC platitudes.

And so this is one fan who simply does not buy that whole 'Gene Roddenberry's vision' line any longer.

The thing is that Gene Roddenberry's 'vision' SHOULD have been to simply make good scifi. It should have been to create interesting characters, and to develop those characters. It should have been to challenge the viewer with moral dilemmas....and illustrate what happens when one makes the right choice...and what happens when one makes the wrong choice. And what happens when there IS, in fact, no 'right choice'.

We got some of that with TOS - as much as one could expect out of a TV show made in the 60's.

But we didn't get it with TNG. Not by a longshot.

With DS9, we got some of that back. We got back the shades of gray that were absent from the sterilized Trek Universe of TNG. We got back storylines that challenged the viewer. We got back the concept of flawed heroes just trying to do the best they could. And I'm GLAD for that.

It's easy to be a saint in paradise.

But fortunately for us, DS9 was not paradise. Nor, by the way, was TOS.

I think is is very telling what happened to Trek after DS9. It was at a crossroads....and B&B chose to follow the path of the more sterilized, black & white approach.

Result: Voyager and Enterprise.

Meanwhile, Ron Moore, a DS9 writer, bailed from the Voyager staff within weeks of joining it due to 'creative differences' (in retrospect - no KIDDING!)...and went and did Battlestar Galactica. Which I would argue became, in many ways, the Voyager that could have been.

Now, I actually like Voyager more than many fans on this board do. But I will say this: it pales in comparison to Battlestar Galactica. VOY and BSG have very similar premises - a lost military ship (in BSG's case accompanied by a small civilian fleet) battling against incredible odds for their very survival...and trying to reach a destination that was either mythical (in BSG's case) or so far away as to be practically mythical (in VOY's case).

VOY is the product of a show-runner who took the happy-shiny Gene Roddenberry-approved TNG path to it's next level...and BSG is the product of a show-runner who took the darker and more morally nebulous DS9 path to it's next level.

Me? Given that comparison, I don't give a shit about Gene Roddenberry's so-called 'vision'.

If the end result of that 'vision' is Voyager...and the end result of a DS9 writer's 'vision' on a show of almost identical premise is BSG?

Well, I'm thinkin' Gene Roddenberry and his 'vision' are HIGHLY overrated. :p

While I don't think that Voyager needed to be as dark (and spiritual) as BSG, it could definitely have done with some more moral relativism and realistic choices. Not once was Voyager (aside from maybe Caretaker) forced between doing something wrong, or dying to suffer the consequences.

As to Roddenberry, agreed on all points.
 
I really hate the quote that BSG is what Voyager could have been because BSG has taken dark to a whole new level and that is the show's biggest problem. Do you really think these people are an accurate realistic portrayal of real human beings. I don't. I could take it for maybe a season or longer since they did escape thier own apocolypse, but they are still depressing angry nitwits. There is no hope in the show and even the finale we get a glimmer of hope and then it's dashed. I thought BSG's journey was to achive a sense of hope but it's become one dark depressing affair after another. Now I still like BSG quite a bit (Season 4 has been disappointing though) but I don't want trek characters being the emo depressing drunken no-lifers like what BSG has portrayed.

Now if it's tone and actually struggling for survival, than yeah I could see that but there needs to always be a sense of hope and something good happening. I think Voyager could have really improved with that, but saying BSG is what Voyager should have been is probably partially correct, but I'm glad Voyager wasn't, at least from a character point of view.
 
#1 - Ferengi are CLOWNS - turning ST into Lost in Space

maybe them weren't as threatening as GR had intended but the Ferengi in seasons 1-2 of TNG were at least not a joke

#2 - The music - think grand not MUSAK which was Berman's edict that still has me saying WTF?

#3 - Vic Fontaine - Why WHY WHYYYYY

#4 - Serialized war - this isn't as bad as nuBSG but the beginnings of soap opera were planted

#5 - 110# woman tossing 220# men around like rag dolls - come on

#6 - Too much technobabble and talking in general


and the list goes on

saddly because there was alot to like and some good actors but once you throw in Rom or Zek ----- well you get the point

and NO way GR would go for this


Another shit list, in my opinion. Especially since a similar one had not been made for TNG, ENT or TOS - all shows that starred white males.

Another point that I agree with. Let's face it DS9 was Paramounts "Black Sheep", but TPTB fail to realize it that DS9 was a very good show.

It certainly had potential and that came through on many episodes but far too often the show sacrificed the art of story telling in the classic Scifo tradition for character details that were boring. Its biggest crime was to turn ST into a farce of itself with the Ferengi / Vic Fontaine / Troi's mother etc...
Compare the stories from TW and the skill used to tell them to DS9 - that's what TOS aimed for and largely succeeded DS9 fell short IMHO

Will ST ever reach those heights again - unlikely. But lets hope that something new does
 
With Vic, there were some cheesy, cringe inducing moments for sure. But I think the character contributed much more than he ever took away.
 
*raises hand* Another one who loved the inclusion of Vic Fontaine. James Darren kicks ass! ;)
 
PKTrekGirl...

Your post was long, so I won't quote it, but also mostly true. I do have some contention with your interpretation of TNG. In the beginning, (while under Gene) we do see the crew as nearly perfect and all that jazz, but more to the end, we have characters that have overcome so much personal problems to be who and what they are... Tasha ran away from a horrible home... Geordi overcame being blind... Bev is a widow... Picard has all kinds of family issues, as does Riker. Worf is an orphan with many problems. I think it shows that despite all these flaws, we can demand better for ourselves.
 
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