Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
Now consider this...
Might it be
?
Now consider this...
Might it be
The Rani
Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
- Thread starter Servo
- Start date
Yet the biggest character in the bloody thing was entirely wasted. I agree on Stolen Earth, but no, Journey's End even falls short on what you rightly point out is RTD's strength.
To each their own of course. If you enjoyed it then more power to you. I certainly wanted to.
I guess I better put IMHO here too to save some folks getting their arses in a tangle.
Now consider this...
Might it be?The Rani
No.
Oh come on, it's no more ridiculous than "Project De-Gravitate" from "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" !
And?
And?? What's that supposed to mean?
Dalek Caan 'changing sides' is one of the bits I most like: it builds on things which started in Genesis, when the Doctor pitches a 'thought problem' to Davros about wiping out all life in the universe, and Davros says 'I would do it' (and tries to do it in Journey's End, in a different way). Then we get the Dalek that kills itself rather than be human in the 2005 season; followed up by an elite group of Daleks who're allowed to think like Humans in Doomsday, one of whom tries to find a place for the Daleks as a normal species in Evolution (etc). And now, another of these enhanced Daleks makes the choice the Doctor couldn't make - to decide that the Daleks don't deserve to exist (flipping Dalek attitudes back on themselves).
And the Doctor still rejects that, but we get two Doctors so one can make the genocidal choice the Doctor rejected back in Genesis.
There's a lot about this episode I don't like (Copping out of the companion death by having it be an allegorical death once is forgiveable, twice is not. Third strike, and no parole); also a lot I do, in terms of the characters (what Russell gets so right - imagine watching the episode Rose and thinking that Mickey's farewell to Jackie could ever happen). But at the end, in amongst the bits that feel ' Well, you put that in because it'd look good, or attract publicity', it does hit the issues about how you deal with evil that made Genesis so memorable.
And the Doctor still rejects that, but we get two Doctors so one can make the genocidal choice the Doctor rejected back in Genesis.
There's a lot about this episode I don't like (Copping out of the companion death by having it be an allegorical death once is forgiveable, twice is not. Third strike, and no parole); also a lot I do, in terms of the characters (what Russell gets so right - imagine watching the episode Rose and thinking that Mickey's farewell to Jackie could ever happen). But at the end, in amongst the bits that feel ' Well, you put that in because it'd look good, or attract publicity', it does hit the issues about how you deal with evil that made Genesis so memorable.
You know, I have been wondering what would actually happen if the Daleks succeeded in wiping out all other life? It goes along the lines of what would Skynet do if it actually killed John Connor and the rest of the human race? What would they do?
I had an idea in my head about the Doctor finding himself in an alternate universe in which the Daleks have succeeded in taking over the universe. Having wiped out all other lifeforms, the AU Daleks now create new lifeforms to torture and kill over and over in a sick game of sorts.
I had an idea in my head about the Doctor finding himself in an alternate universe in which the Daleks have succeeded in taking over the universe. Having wiped out all other lifeforms, the AU Daleks now create new lifeforms to torture and kill over and over in a sick game of sorts.
Just a couple of points:
1) The Doctor seemed pretty clued-up with what had happened when he healed himself (rather than regenerating). In fact he said that he initiated it. Why then could he not tell his companions 'Don't worry I have a cunning plan' at the end of The Stolen Earth? Rather than effectively saying goodbye?
2) Thematically, I can't get my head around why the return of Rose would be suggested through two series, then when she does finally return she and the Doctor not having one meaningful conversation. Mr. Smith seemed to have more dialogue! The Doctor has supposedly been pining for his lost companion for two series, then the minute she gets back he drops her off back where she started? And doesn't even say goodbye to Jackie? Although obviously not intended (and hints were attempted at showing the Doctor's pain) it almost reminded me of that scene in Blackadder Goes Forth with Edmund and Nurse Fletcher-Brown: *Paraphrasing*
FB (Rose):'Oh Edmund, I thought I mattered, I thought we had something special...I thought you...loved me'
Edmund (The Doctor): *A seconds pause* 'Nah'
I mean the whole Bad Wolf bay scene really didn't work for me. Please don't get me wrong. I've loved Doctor Who with and without the Rose character. But if you're going to the effort to made something big of a chacter's return, surely the pay-off should make sense and be arrived at through a coherent narrative. The scene where Rose asked what the Doctor was going to say on the beach during 'Doomsday' was awful. It was like a bizarre trans-dimensional edition of 'Blind Date'. Rose: 'On the worst day of my life, how would you finish this sentence?'
3) Jackie and Mickey were criminally underused. Much of the success of Davies' relaunched Doctor Who has been the character-driven narrative and very human perspective on the wondrous events that surround the Doctor. In these last two episodes (with the exception of Cribbins/Donna's loss), companion characters have been hurled in with no other purpose than to be there. Each only had a few lines, shouted out. I can't help thinking that the presence of one, or maybe two companions from the past would really have been a sensible limit. Without these needless additions, I reckon at least an extra half and hour of time would have been available to better flesh out Davros, the Dalek Plan and the Doctor's key reunions and character exploration.
I've enjoyed this whole series. Tate has been excellent, Cribbins brilliant. I think all the actors/actresses involved have been superb. The stories have been strong. I just can't help thinking that from a charcter-perspective the finale wasted some very strong opportunites. But heck, I think Davies has done a great job of Doctor Who on the whole
1) The Doctor seemed pretty clued-up with what had happened when he healed himself (rather than regenerating). In fact he said that he initiated it. Why then could he not tell his companions 'Don't worry I have a cunning plan' at the end of The Stolen Earth? Rather than effectively saying goodbye?
2) Thematically, I can't get my head around why the return of Rose would be suggested through two series, then when she does finally return she and the Doctor not having one meaningful conversation. Mr. Smith seemed to have more dialogue! The Doctor has supposedly been pining for his lost companion for two series, then the minute she gets back he drops her off back where she started? And doesn't even say goodbye to Jackie? Although obviously not intended (and hints were attempted at showing the Doctor's pain) it almost reminded me of that scene in Blackadder Goes Forth with Edmund and Nurse Fletcher-Brown: *Paraphrasing*
FB (Rose):'Oh Edmund, I thought I mattered, I thought we had something special...I thought you...loved me'
Edmund (The Doctor): *A seconds pause* 'Nah'
I mean the whole Bad Wolf bay scene really didn't work for me. Please don't get me wrong. I've loved Doctor Who with and without the Rose character. But if you're going to the effort to made something big of a chacter's return, surely the pay-off should make sense and be arrived at through a coherent narrative. The scene where Rose asked what the Doctor was going to say on the beach during 'Doomsday' was awful. It was like a bizarre trans-dimensional edition of 'Blind Date'. Rose: 'On the worst day of my life, how would you finish this sentence?'
3) Jackie and Mickey were criminally underused. Much of the success of Davies' relaunched Doctor Who has been the character-driven narrative and very human perspective on the wondrous events that surround the Doctor. In these last two episodes (with the exception of Cribbins/Donna's loss), companion characters have been hurled in with no other purpose than to be there. Each only had a few lines, shouted out. I can't help thinking that the presence of one, or maybe two companions from the past would really have been a sensible limit. Without these needless additions, I reckon at least an extra half and hour of time would have been available to better flesh out Davros, the Dalek Plan and the Doctor's key reunions and character exploration.
I've enjoyed this whole series. Tate has been excellent, Cribbins brilliant. I think all the actors/actresses involved have been superb. The stories have been strong. I just can't help thinking that from a charcter-perspective the finale wasted some very strong opportunites. But heck, I think Davies has done a great job of Doctor Who on the whole
I voted "fantastic" and I stick by that because plenty of parts got a strong emotional response from me but I definitely think that this style of season ender needs to be mixed up a bit now (which I suspect Moffat will do).
I did rather get the impression that RTD was trying to have a giant cake, and also to eat the same cake, and he just about pulled it off. I don't like Rose enough to think she deserved to get a Doctor all to herself, but it was a sweet moment that played well. Donna's fate was far more emotional and played perfectly by all concerned.
Switch-flipping to end the big threat? Pretty standard for Doctor Who - he doesn't, after all, as they pointed out, carry a weapon. Someone needs to teach Daleks not to put all their eggs in one basket. Except they can't, now, because ALL THE DALEKS ARE DEAD... FOREVER (or not)
I have a quibble that I know literally no-one cares about... but all that "Half human, half Timelord" stuff... erm... The Doctor was already half human, we might not like it (no-one does) but the BBC says its canon - it happened. RTD should have used this story as an excuse to make him fully Timelord, except he couldn't, because his Earth heritage has never been mentioned in nuWho. (I concede that there might be a book that sorts this out, I heard something about his two hearts or something... if there is, please let me know.)
So, in conclusion - messy but epic story, worthy of a fantastic this time, but needs looking at as an example of what works and what doesn't next season.
I did rather get the impression that RTD was trying to have a giant cake, and also to eat the same cake, and he just about pulled it off. I don't like Rose enough to think she deserved to get a Doctor all to herself, but it was a sweet moment that played well. Donna's fate was far more emotional and played perfectly by all concerned.
Switch-flipping to end the big threat? Pretty standard for Doctor Who - he doesn't, after all, as they pointed out, carry a weapon. Someone needs to teach Daleks not to put all their eggs in one basket. Except they can't, now, because ALL THE DALEKS ARE DEAD... FOREVER (or not)
I have a quibble that I know literally no-one cares about... but all that "Half human, half Timelord" stuff... erm... The Doctor was already half human, we might not like it (no-one does) but the BBC says its canon - it happened. RTD should have used this story as an excuse to make him fully Timelord, except he couldn't, because his Earth heritage has never been mentioned in nuWho. (I concede that there might be a book that sorts this out, I heard something about his two hearts or something... if there is, please let me know.)
So, in conclusion - messy but epic story, worthy of a fantastic this time, but needs looking at as an example of what works and what doesn't next season.
I think Moffat will make an excellent and quiet season finale that will blow RTD's four previous.
By quiet I mean subtle and no "OMG! tEZ explosions" and cramming so much crap into the end with some giant CGI fleet of doom.
Maybe it will be set on another planet and not involve earth for once.
Fantastic in every sense of the word, just fantastic, Dr who at its best, RTD has finished his time with Who the way he started it, on a brilliant action paced Who story, good for him, i will miss his interviews on confidential because he was just so enthusiastic about Who over his whole tenure with Who.
This season of Who has been a absolute cracker.
Roll on the Xmas special.
This season of Who has been a absolute cracker.
Roll on the Xmas special.
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Great episode. Rose went back probably because her mom had a child with her dad from the other universe and that is where Rose's family is, her mom is all she had and her family is listed as dead in the main universe.
Now consider this...
Might it be?The Rani
Ah, no. It's a new character played by Dervla Kirwan. Why does everything have to be fanw--k assumed to be a continuity point? Particularly one that makes no sense in a 'One Time Lord only' continuity (it's the Christmas special, and your suggestion would have to be the pay-off to a season arc, Saxon-style).
Actually the only thing here which is embarrassing is that you've seem to forgotten that a joke is supposed to be funny and I don't see the funny here
Flicking a few switches to make all the Daleks blow up (umm, how?) was quite anti-climatic.
It was okay. The best scene was the one with the Doctor and Wilf. Bernard Cribbins for the next companion!
It was okay. The best scene was the one with the Doctor and Wilf. Bernard Cribbins for the next companion!
I'm going to have to think about this episode for a bit (and probably watch it again) before I give my final grave. I won't goes as far as saying I was disappointed (certainly not on the same level of as last year from the excellent "The Sound of Drums" to the abysmal "Last of the Time Lords"), but there were aspects of the episode I did not like. However, there were aspects that I loved (which is something I can't say about "Last of the Time Lords").
While I was disappointed by the resolution for the regeneration, I realize that it makes sense within the confines of what Davies was striving for, i.e. Caan manipulating The Doctor and Donna to The Three-Fold Man. Not what I had expected (I liked the theory of seeing either The Seventh or Eight Doctor and a possible Eleventh alongside The Tenth), but after a couple of viewings, I might decide I like it. I certainly appreciate the ribbing of the second Doctor being half-human, half-Gallifreyian. HOWEVER, what I didn't like was Davies having his cake and eating it, too, in regards to Rose. She stays trapped in the parallel universe with a Doctor who ages with her. Sour grapes!
Now to the excellent aspects, mostly centered around Davros. I loved how Davros was regulated to the Vault and not really leading the Daleks (The Supreme Dalek was actually in charge!). Pet Davros indeed! I was very happy to get my Davros/Sarah Jane scene and I was even more happy that Davros recognized Sarah Jane! That whole exchange was pure brilliance!
Speaking of brilliance, I loved what Davies had to say through Davros about The Doctor's stance towards violence and how he uses his companions instead to do his dirty work. It's true and not just for the new series. That was the structure of the classic series throughout its whole run (well, except The Third Doctor, where he was the action hero). The flashes back to all of the people who died for The Doctor in the new series (or how I like to look at it, since the Time War) was particularly well down.
And now for a few random thoughts:
K-9! He did it again! Making a surprise appearance in the end to save the day! Good ol' K-9!
Was it just me or were some of the sound effects when Doctor Donna was doing her bit in the Vault from the classic series, particularly the Tom Baker era? I'll have to listen to it again to pinpoint it down further.
At last we finally get to see the TARDIS with a full crew!
Great to see Mickey and Jackie again (man, three years ago, I would have never imagined saying that!), but we didn't get enough of them. The closing scene for Mickey seemed to confirm that
The Ode to Donna at the end with The Doctor honoring her memory by sharing to her mum and grandfather the effect she had on the universe. Lost of memory, just as some poster predicted. Almost as tragic as Jamie and Zoe (not quite as tragic, I'd argue, because their lost of memory seemed so senseless to me).
So, yeah, I'll have to watch the episode again before I can make my final rating, but it's between Average and Above Average.
While I was disappointed by the resolution for the regeneration, I realize that it makes sense within the confines of what Davies was striving for, i.e. Caan manipulating The Doctor and Donna to The Three-Fold Man. Not what I had expected (I liked the theory of seeing either The Seventh or Eight Doctor and a possible Eleventh alongside The Tenth), but after a couple of viewings, I might decide I like it. I certainly appreciate the ribbing of the second Doctor being half-human, half-Gallifreyian. HOWEVER, what I didn't like was Davies having his cake and eating it, too, in regards to Rose. She stays trapped in the parallel universe with a Doctor who ages with her. Sour grapes!
Now to the excellent aspects, mostly centered around Davros. I loved how Davros was regulated to the Vault and not really leading the Daleks (The Supreme Dalek was actually in charge!). Pet Davros indeed! I was very happy to get my Davros/Sarah Jane scene and I was even more happy that Davros recognized Sarah Jane! That whole exchange was pure brilliance!
Speaking of brilliance, I loved what Davies had to say through Davros about The Doctor's stance towards violence and how he uses his companions instead to do his dirty work. It's true and not just for the new series. That was the structure of the classic series throughout its whole run (well, except The Third Doctor, where he was the action hero). The flashes back to all of the people who died for The Doctor in the new series (or how I like to look at it, since the Time War) was particularly well down.
And now for a few random thoughts:
K-9! He did it again! Making a surprise appearance in the end to save the day! Good ol' K-9!
Was it just me or were some of the sound effects when Doctor Donna was doing her bit in the Vault from the classic series, particularly the Tom Baker era? I'll have to listen to it again to pinpoint it down further.
At last we finally get to see the TARDIS with a full crew!
Great to see Mickey and Jackie again (man, three years ago, I would have never imagined saying that!), but we didn't get enough of them. The closing scene for Mickey seemed to confirm that
Both he and Martha are indeed joining Torchwood next season!
The Ode to Donna at the end with The Doctor honoring her memory by sharing to her mum and grandfather the effect she had on the universe. Lost of memory, just as some poster predicted. Almost as tragic as Jamie and Zoe (not quite as tragic, I'd argue, because their lost of memory seemed so senseless to me).
So, yeah, I'll have to watch the episode again before I can make my final rating, but it's between Average and Above Average.
Re: Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)
Well she is dressed in red and she wears a devilish smile, it suggest itself.
And it's not like the aforementioned Time lady is a big multi-episode character... she doesn't need any arches, an one-off episode would be enough to deal with her.
But then again, she might be just a new companion. A slightly evil companion, for a change. One way or other, she looks interesting. We shall see on Christmas.
Well she is dressed in red and she wears a devilish smile, it suggest itself.
And it's not like the aforementioned Time lady is a big multi-episode character... she doesn't need any arches, an one-off episode would be enough to deal with her.
But then again, she might be just a new companion. A slightly evil companion, for a change. One way or other, she looks interesting. We shall see on Christmas.
Bernard would make for a great companion for a christmas special, say an alien steals Donna and Bernard and the Doctor have to save her before her memories awaken and destroy her.
If donna dies of old age or accident, wouldn't it funny if she managed to regenerate.
Maybe Caan saw that Davros could have escaped from the time-lock and this was the only possible path to destroy the Daleks once and for all.