Many have said the Dominion should have won the war...

[Vanyel]

*Waiting for someone to come in and say that they didn't do it honorably and that the ends didn't justify the means. It always happens.

It was the hard choice to make. Right or wrong, they had a weapon, and used it. However they were stupid to do it. Without the Founders the Jem'Hadar would have gone on a rampage, because the Founders would have taken the secret to creating The White with them. As was pointed out to Sisko, in, I think, Statistical Probabilities.

 

[Hermiod]

^I don't recall that. The Admiral in "The Die is Cast", however, said that the Jem'Hadar would come "screaming out of the wormhole" if the Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order plan was successful.

Damar also suggested poisoning the last batch of Ketracel White in "Behind the Lines" as their supplies were running low and he was concerned that the Jem'Hadar would become uncontrollable and go on a rampage.

What Bashir did say, however, was that they should concede the star system the Dominion were carefully trying to get their hands on that had the enzyme necessary to make Ketracel White. Without it, the Dominion would have no choice but to go on a full offensive which would lead to massive casualties on both sides.

 

[Timo]

Indeed. And it should be emphasized that the initiative was almost constantly on the Dominion: they chose when and whether to go to war, what the goals of the war should be, and what the means in fighting it. This already suggests a great number of potential ways to end the war, with a great number of different outcomes, regardless of whether the Dominion military is seen as invincible or incapable of handling the job. It was always up to the whims of the Founders how the war should proceed and conclude.

The Federation was pretty good at teasing the most advantageous possible action out of the Dominion, though. While it was the Dominion's decision whether to go to war over the crucial KW-manufacturing planet, the Feds were able to see this and take advantage of it. While it was the Dominion's decision when to start the open assault on Alpha after securing the Cardassian bridgehead, Starfleet was able to force the Dominion hand by mining shut the wormhole, then make use of this dictated course of action by simultaneously striking where it mattered, at the shipyards.

I wonder how many times the Dominion did similar stuff, using their superior intelligence-gathering abilities to force the Starfleet hand... Perhaps the Chin'toka quagmire was their doing, a master plan to tie down major Alpha forces by guiding the actions and ambitions of Captain Sisko?

(Don S. Davis is dead? My deepest sympathies - lots of fond memories on his most famous character...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DanCPA]

*Waiting for someone to come in and say that they didn't do it honorably and that the ends didn't justify the means. It always happens.

It was the hard choice to make. Right or wrong, they had a weapon, and used it. However they were stupid to do it. Without the Founders the Jem'Hadar would have gone on a rampage, because the Founders would have taken the secret to creating The White with them. As was pointed out to Sisko, in, I think, Statistical Probabilities.

As far as I know there are only a few founders in the AQ. And if Odo is the last founder standing, he can order the Jem hadar to surrender

 

[Hermiod]

Indeed. And it should be emphasized that the initiative was almost constantly on the Dominion: they chose when and whether to go to war, what the goals of the war should be, and what the means in fighting it. This already suggests a great number of potential ways to end the war, with a great number of different outcomes, regardless of whether the Dominion military is seen as invincible or incapable of handling the job. It was always up to the whims of the Founders how the war should proceed and conclude.

The Founders were indeed often planning hundreds of years ahead. Yet they placed the return of one of their own above all else.

The Federation was pretty good at teasing the most advantageous possible action out of the Dominion, though. While it was the Dominion's decision whether to go to war over the crucial KW-manufacturing planet, the Feds were able to see this and take advantage of it. While it was the Dominion's decision when to start the open assault on Alpha after securing the Cardassian bridgehead, Starfleet was able to force the Dominion hand by mining shut the wormhole, then make use of this dictated course of action by simultaneously striking where it mattered, at the shipyards.

Yes. Deep Space 9 was an acceptable loss. It forced the Dominion to prove to the rest of the galaxy that they took those non-aggression pacts they signed seriously and it gave them the opportunity to cripple the Dominion's ability to reinforce.

I wonder how many times the Dominion did similar stuff, using their superior intelligence-gathering abilities to force the Starfleet hand... Perhaps the Chin'toka quagmire was their doing, a master plan to tie down major Alpha forces by guiding the actions and ambitions of Captain Sisko?

We do not know the full extent of the Founder's infiltration of the Alpha Quadrant, though I'd imagine most were withdrawn when the disease started to affect their ability to shapeshift.

(Don S. Davis is dead? My deepest sympathies - lots of fond memories on his most famous character...)

Yes, sadly he died of a heart attack yesterday.

 

[DanCPA]

Yes. Deep Space 9 was an acceptable loss. It forced the Dominion to prove to the rest of the galaxy that they took those non-aggression pacts they signed seriously and it gave them the opportunity to cripple the Dominion's ability to reinforce.

And, by allowing the Cardassians near Bajor, you knew there was going to start being some dissension in the ranks pretty fast between the Cardies and the JemHadar!

 

[Timo]

Now, that's probably the only sound reason for Starfleet not to destroy DS9 as they withdrew...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DanCPA]

Now, that's probably the only sound reason for Starfleet not to destroy DS9 as they withdrew...

Timo Saloniemi

Well, Sisko did render it pretty useless.

 

[JM1776]

We do not know the full extent of the Founder's infiltration of the Alpha Quadrant, though I'd imagine most were withdrawn when the disease started to affect their ability to shapeshift.

Either that, or they were caught. Think about how suddenly and completely it overwhelmed Odo. If such had occurred at Starfleet Command, well ...

Heck, it's possible shapeshifters on Earth either died in agony, or, alternately, were captured near war's end, cured ...

... and then imprisoned.

Great idea for a story, that.

 

[DanCPA]

Or possibly not infected at all... What if they were already in the fleet (or other AQ power) before the virus was released

 

[Timo]

Well, the original infection would have to come from between "Paradise Lost" (which is the earliest time the bioweapon could have been developed) and "Broken Link" (where Odo became Solid and thus was in all likelihood cured of the disease and ceased to be a vector). And odds are, the infection was transmitted at the end of "Broken Link". Whether it would spread back to Alpha at all is unknown - the so-called Female Founder was the only one ever seen to suffer from the disease on the Alpha side, and probably it was she who reinfected Odo with it during the first episodes of Season Six.

For all we know, the other Alpha Changelings were spared of the disease altogether, if already on assignment during "Broken Link". That is, Changelings other than Laas, who interacted with the reinfected Odo. And whether being unable to return to the Link out of fear of infection would have reduced the effectiveness of the Founder agents is debatable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JM1776]

Or possibly not infected at all... What if they were already in the fleet (or other AQ power) before the virus was released

That's quite possible, too ... but if the shapeshifter agents were briefing each other and reporting back to the Female Founder with whom we're most familiar by linking to convey information, well ... who can say? Just because they're assigned to Earth doesn't mean they couldn't periodically return to Cardassia Prime, or meet her at some prearranged point. We have no assurances, frankly, that Odo didn't interact with ten or fifteen different Female Founders: They are shapeshifters, after all, and far more adept with their abilities than the good constable.

It's plausible either way.

 

[mic of orion]

Dominion had advantage of surprise attack, and dominion military machine was geared for war. that' can't be said for the Federation, which had peace with the Romulans, the Klingon Empire even the Borg where nowhere to be seen. (OK first contact being the exception here).

I believe federation would have prevailed sooner or later, purely on the fact federation is vast and powerful, once the military production sets in, things move fast; also it was rather short war, 4 years is nothing.

 

[Jono]

Dominion had advantage of surprise attack, and dominion military machine was geared for war. that' can't be said for the Federation, which had peace with the Romulans, the Klingon Empire even the Borg where nowhere to be seen. (OK first contact being the exception here).

I believe federation would have prevailed sooner or later, purely on the fact federation is vast and powerful, once the military production sets in, things move fast; also it was rather short war, 4 years is nothing.

2 years is even less.

 

[Phily B]

After watching Babylon 5 and BSG, there are many things DS9 could've done better.

The end of the Dominion was one.

 

[DanCPA]

The end of the Dominion was one.

The entire dominion or just the dominion/federation war?

 

[Hermiod]

The end of the Dominion was one.

The entire dominion or just the dominion/federation war?

Yes, there was no "end". The Dominion was probably dramatically changed by Odo's influence, but it didn't "end".

 

[Kegek]

No I can't see the Federation/Klingon/Romulan Alliance winning. That the Prophets destroyed the Dominion reinforcements was the only way to keep that alliance from losing.

Well, had Odo not been so enraptured by the Female Changeling, Rom's plan might have been a success and they would not have needed Prophetic intervention. But yes, Odo screwed up so badly that a once-in-a-lifetime deus ex machina was required for which Sisko eventually paid the cost.

Odo's punishment was an offscreen conversation with Kira, after which they're best pals again and all is hunky-dory. Hmph. That never sat right with me. I'm not saying he should have been disciplined, but I would have least liked to see that scene.

And I'm pretty satisfied with the conclusion of the Dominion War we were given. It was an Alpha Quadrant victory; but it pretty much amounted to thwarting Dominion attempts to conquer the Alpha Quadrant - rather than a complete destruction of the Dominion or anything over-the-top.