number6
Vice Admiral
Which is totally reasonable and the right thing to do. I agree JB was a staunch advocate for the fans. You can tell how pissed off he was at the sheer incompetence of the organization.
Star Trek Convention Cancelled DURING Event
- Thread starter Frontier
- Start date
Regarding the hotel,
There was talk about moving the convention to October a month before the con, do to worry about the upcoming SAG strike and the possiblity studios making actors work more to get in as much filming as possible, indeed this did happen with Paul Mcgillion and Thomas Dekker who had to film that Friday and were flying in Saturday. We learned that in order to reschedule the hotel would charge a cancellation fee of about $70,000 upfront, then get a some of that back (I forgot the percentage) after the con was over at its new date. Tim did not have that type of capital to do that so the date could not be moved.
.. Then it was learned that Creation Entertainment booked a "Supernatural" convention just one week before Fedconusa in the same hotel! A letter was drafted by Tim and others to the hotel demanding that they reduce the terms of the contract because Creation's Con would take away some of the sales, there by preventing Fedconusa a good chance to meet the requirements of the contract. The letter stated that if was quite underhanded of the hotel to book a scifi/fanatasy related con so close to another one and still expect Fedconusa to meet the requirements (room nights). There was a Marriot hotel near by that the con could have moved if the Hyatt did not reduce there requirements. The hotel did reduce the room nights and some of the catering (i'm not sure of the specifics) , but IMO, it should have done more. Maybe because they knew Tim was not happy about what they did they were afraid he was not going to pay and demanded most of the money upfront, thereby causing the cancellation that happened. Not sure that if the con was moved to the Marriot if that would have helped or not.
Now I'm not saying this as a defense to Tim but just pointing out that the hotel was a bit greedy also. If I was running the con (which i never plan too) I would have started it alot smaller, venue wise. The Hyatt was just to big for a first time con. The contract for the hotel was acually setup by the fedcon germany folks (before they pulled out). IMO that contract with the hotel should have been canceled also when they pulled out, it was just to demanding for a first time con.
There was talk about moving the convention to October a month before the con, do to worry about the upcoming SAG strike and the possiblity studios making actors work more to get in as much filming as possible, indeed this did happen with Paul Mcgillion and Thomas Dekker who had to film that Friday and were flying in Saturday. We learned that in order to reschedule the hotel would charge a cancellation fee of about $70,000 upfront, then get a some of that back (I forgot the percentage) after the con was over at its new date. Tim did not have that type of capital to do that so the date could not be moved.
.. Then it was learned that Creation Entertainment booked a "Supernatural" convention just one week before Fedconusa in the same hotel! A letter was drafted by Tim and others to the hotel demanding that they reduce the terms of the contract because Creation's Con would take away some of the sales, there by preventing Fedconusa a good chance to meet the requirements of the contract. The letter stated that if was quite underhanded of the hotel to book a scifi/fanatasy related con so close to another one and still expect Fedconusa to meet the requirements (room nights). There was a Marriot hotel near by that the con could have moved if the Hyatt did not reduce there requirements. The hotel did reduce the room nights and some of the catering (i'm not sure of the specifics) , but IMO, it should have done more. Maybe because they knew Tim was not happy about what they did they were afraid he was not going to pay and demanded most of the money upfront, thereby causing the cancellation that happened. Not sure that if the con was moved to the Marriot if that would have helped or not.
Now I'm not saying this as a defense to Tim but just pointing out that the hotel was a bit greedy also. If I was running the con (which i never plan too) I would have started it alot smaller, venue wise. The Hyatt was just to big for a first time con. The contract for the hotel was acually setup by the fedcon germany folks (before they pulled out). IMO that contract with the hotel should have been canceled also when they pulled out, it was just to demanding for a first time con.
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Hope you were not refering to me I just ran the security volunteers , not registration and money, Thomas F. handled that , I barely even had a chance to talk to John. And yes, John is a hero, I agree there.
number6
Vice Admiral
Keep in mind that the Hotel is in business to book it's rooms and function halls. You can't blame them for taking on a Creation event.
Contractually they weren't required to do anything to help you and what they did do was over and beyond. The contract should have been renegotiated once the Germans pulled out. At that point the terms and conditions of the contract had become radically different.
No one likes to see a convention fail, but how this is handled will be a real barometer for how successful anyone involved in this disaster will be moving forward. You can bet that the same people will be quick to point out all the dirty laundry dredged up from TU and Fedcon if Brazeal tries to do anything Trek again, despite the obvious fact that there is certainly plenty of blame to go around.
I think the organizers are doing the best they can and as long as they know that everyone should and will get their money back, that should suffice. Anything beyond that is petty and unnecessary.
I still don't know why Dallas was picked in the summertime (and it was on fathers day). I think it was the German folks that picked that (atleast for the date part, so it would not collide with fedcon.de). Dallas in October would have been better IMO. Of course myself being from MA i would have liked to seen an east coast con (like in NY or DC), but thats just me. They do have Jumpcon in Boston, they are also a first time con(s) so we will see how they do.
number6
Vice Admiral
I'm from Boston, myself. IMO there hasn't been a descent con over at the Hynes since the mid nineties. The best cons I'd been to were out in Springfield. Creation cons are just too pricey for what they provide. I've been to a couple of Arisia's over at Park Plaza.. those are always good for a laugh. Those guys know how to drink scotch!!
I saw the great video from Vadercast, and plan to mention it whenever I work in my column today. It was VERY sad.
And you're right ... John Billingsley WAS a hero there. If he hadn't been there, the video would've only been five minutes long ... and that's including four minutes of them showing attendees the door.
fleetlord said:
It's June ... filming would've already commenced for some programs anyway (although I do agree that it might be a little busier right now because of a possibility of a SAG strike.
But Tom, you can't seriously be saying that this is why FedCon failed, I hope.
Also, how would October correct that? There is such a scattering of filming, even without a looming strike, that October could've been just as busy as June, especially if a strike ended up not happening.
So maybe I'm missing something (I've never organized a convention before, so please educate me on this) ... but how would that have improved things?
And also, you had people on Saturday and Sunday. I am going to attend Vulkon in Orlando next month, and they have guests that are just Saturday and just Sunday. But that doesn't seem to be affecting attendance at the con. The guests that are one-day only are big enough that you would want to be there both days.
And you had a number of guests ready to go, including headliners, despite last-minute shooting schedules. Tim puts those people on a plane, buys some real advertising, and you have yourself a convention. Maybe not the greatest in the world, but one that would be hard to throw stones at.
Battlestar Galactica, by the way, is NOT shooting right now because of a potential SAG strike. This was all part of the shooting schedule that was established following the end of the WGA strike, and while it has gone on a bit longer than anticipated, it was very clear that actors could be shooting well into mid-June.
Really? If that's the case, then that is a bit shitty. But same hotel or somewhere else in Dallas ... still pretty close together.
But at the same time, I have not really known Creation to schedule conventions at the last minute, so you guys had to know it was coming up. Also, it was only "Supernatural," something I don't think you guys even had anyone from. So how did that really compete?
Sure, maybe there were some people who would go to the Supernatural con, and then would have to go to FedCon ... but it can't be that major. But I really don't know ... I don't organize conventions.
I'm still struggling with this one. The Marriott is a business like every other hotel who is known for doing conventions. Obviously, the Marriott has been doing conventions for a very long time ... there would likely be a contract involved.
I can't see Marriott violating a contract by demanding money up front. To me, that would be a breach of contract if it specifically stated when money should be paid. If it didn't state that, then you guys didn't read and understand the contract very well.
If the Marriott was really afraid of Brazeal not paying up, they would've not allowed the convention to go on. If they were afraid they were going to get stiffed, they could've easily sued Brazeal afterward, and probably sought punitive damages on top of that.
Brazeal was asked to pay money up front, didn't, but they still let the convention start?
None of that adds up.
I couldn't agree more with the first part, but the last part ... You guys should've pulled out as well and regrouped, even if that meant doing a convention in 2009 instead. I mean, in January, overall expenses had to have been minimal (maybe some travel expenses for meetings and such, and to see the facilities), but that would've been a good time to say, "You know, let's take another look at this."
Sure, it's a hindsight observation, but I have a hard time seeing any other reaction, hindsight or not. So that either makes Brazeal one of the worst businessmen of all time, or that we're not getting the whole truth here.
Maybe this is what they're telling you, Tom, I don't know. But it really has a hard time adding up.
If the convention had canceled guests, but still went on and such ... this might not have been that big of a deal. In fact, I had forgotten all about this until someone tipped me off that Aaron Douglas was upset and posting publicly about the convention. We definitely were interested in what was being said there, but even I never expected anyone to pull the plug.
number6 said:
True, but I think that was still kind of sucky for the hotel to do. Tom stating that is the first I heard of that aspect ... I would've been unhappy, too, if I were doing a convention the very next weekend.
The contract should have been renegotiated once the Germans pulled out. At that point the terms and conditions of the contract had become radically different.[/quote]
I totally agree there.
If the FedCon people -- Tim Brazeal, that is -- really does refund money and takes care of any civil or criminal action that may or may not come up, I think the damage would be minimized quite a bit. I don't know if Brazeal himself could do a convention again, but I think there's a chance that others interested in doing it could do it, possibly without even dredging up the past FedCon disaster.
But you're right ... how this is handled is very important.
I disagree on that. I'm spending about $1,000 to go to Comic-Con next month, and that's just in travel, hotel and rental car (and that's doing it cheaply). I'm not buying an admission, because I'm media, but if I were and I get there to find out that the convention is not being put on by the people of Comic-Con, but actually someone who has never done a convention before who is simply licensing the Comic-Con name, and many of the guests who were announced right up to the day of the convention weren't coming, and the convention was being shut down ... oooh, would I be pissed.
Sure, it's San Diego, so I could go to the Star Trek Exhibition or something, and maybe drive to Hollywood -- but I don't think that if I were led to believe that Comic-Con's corporate structure was involved and that this convention was going to happen, that I would sit back and just eat the expense. If I knew much of this information, and I still took the risk -- that would be different.
But the problem here is that attendees were not informed of many of the elements that could bring this convention down. I can certainly understand why Brazeal and company wouldn't want to tell anyone, because it would likely force the cancellation of their convention .. but then you cancel it. Lick your wounds, and move on.
Would I have mentioned anything about it? Probably not ... maybe a throwaway line on a message board or somewhere. But it certainly wouldn't attract the amount of attention it did, and if Brazeal had decided to try again in a year or three, he probably could've done so without having such a black-listed reputation as he does now.
I've mentioned this before, but I wanted to do a convention in Tampa called SyFyCon back in 1999 when I was trying to get SyFy off the ground. I thought it would be fun, and was hoping to bring in people that were not your typical convention headliners, but would still be interested.
The first person I approached as we were putting together details (just to get an idea of how much it would cost) was Majel Barrett Roddenberry. I talked to her convention agent who sent me an itemized list of what Mrs. Roddenberry would charge to attend, and what she would need from us to attend.
I thought my eyeballs were going to jump out of my head. I mean, the cost to bring her alone was almost as much as I made in like a year (I'm exaggerating, but it really caught me by surprise). But I realized that this is what it would take. When I would attend Vulkons and such, the headliners were brought up in limos and such, and I'm sure flew first class cross-country. Just to bring in three guests for SyFyCon would've required a huge upfront capital investment ... plus, the only thing I knew about conventions was that I went to them from time to time. I knew nothing else about them. I knew nothing of how Joe Motes and other convention organizers locally at the time would react to me putting on a convention that would likely compete with them.
So what did I do? I abandoned plans right there, and concentrated on other projects. I certainly wasn't the best businessperson in the world in 1999, but I seemed to have enough sense to know when I was in over my head.
fleetlord said:
You know, I think Dallas would've been far better in October, too. But what can you do?
Vulkon in Orlando is in July, and we all know what Florida is like in the summer, but I have a good feeling they'll do pretty well. They have good guests and an established name ...
Dallas seemed good for a "central" location ... but to be honest, a real good central location to me is Atlanta. This is all hindsight, mind you, but since Altanta is a major flight hub, flying to Atlanta is pretty cost-effective almost from anywhere in North America. Or maybe it's not ... I didn't look at flight costs, so I could be wrong.
Tim Brazeal was obviously way over his head, and Tom, you know that I also think some of the blame has to go on FedCon Gmbh, starting with bringing Tim in to run it in the first place. If TrekUnited was just a sponsor to help market it or what not, or if Tim even brought in someone with experience in running conventions (especially when FedCon Gmbh pulled out), I think those would've been moves that might have either saved the convention, or really saved his ass.
I really do hope for the sake of Tim Brazeal, for the people who worked with him and believed in this, the guests, and the people who spent their hard-earned money in a tough economy to attend, that this is nothing more than a series of negligent, convention newbie acts. I hope it's nothing criminal or deliberate. But it's really hard for me to see Tim Brazeal as the victim, or even FedCon Germany as the victim. The real victims were the people who believed in them to work with them (even as volunteers), the guests and the attendees.
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Isn't that how you run a successful con and get people to attend each day? You spread out the talent so each day has something great to offer.
I've never run a convention, so I don't know for sure ... but it does make sense to me. That's why I am struggling a little bit with the fact that some guests could only be there Saturday or Sunday, or both Saturday and Sunday. Fridays are usually slower nights anyway ... Saturday is the big day, and Sunday is a slower day -- unless you have a good one-day guest on Sunday.
From what I understand, Vulkon has Nana Visitor on Saturday and Jonathan Frakes on Sunday. I'm not a big Sunday convention-goer ... but Jesus, Jonathan Frakes? That's a great Sunday guest in my opinion.
I've never been to a Creation con, so I don't know how they are. In fact, because of my crowd intolerance, I have really ever only gone to Vulkon, Necronomicon, Oasis, and I think some other group who I can't remember now. I've never been to Dragon*Con, and up until this year, I had never been to Comic-Con.
I get invited to conventions all the time .... however, as a panelist guest (which is probably ambitious for even me), and I normally turn them down because of time constraints, and because I can't justify me traveling (panelist guests usually travel and board on their own accord). And I don't like crowds. =P
But I am trying to do better. I will end up attending four conventions this year (maybe five if Vulkon thinks I'm worth coming back to the winter convention), and I'll be a panelist at three of them ... and I think it will be fun.
Two things:
Keep the discussion to the actual issue at hand (I see that we are on track currently but there was something of a detour earlier).
Maintain some sense of decorum.
Thanks guys.
Keep the discussion to the actual issue at hand (I see that we are on track currently but there was something of a detour earlier).
Maintain some sense of decorum.
Thanks guys.
number6
Vice Admiral
Nope, not you Tom. To many Tom's floating around. Actually my understanding was that you did a great job, indeed you also went above and beyond the call of duty.
I've worked security for several concerts over the years and I can vouch to the fact that security for a major event is a HUGE undertaking!
I've worked security for several concerts over the years and I can vouch to the fact that security for a major event is a HUGE undertaking!
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FleetLord is right - Creation did come in the week before with a Supernatural Convention and if I remember right, some of the Actors they were going to have there were also Actors from some of the SciFi series.
Funny thing, now there is no mention of the Supernatural Convention they had there anywhere on their site that I can find. But it was on there before.
Funny thing, now there is no mention of the Supernatural Convention they had there anywhere on their site that I can find. But it was on there before.
Is it possible Creation engaged in a little industrial sabotage? Book a convention to bleed off support for FedCon then pull the plug after FedCon goes down in flames. Kill new competition before they can even get off the ground.
You know, that's something they were accused of doing with some regularity in the 1980s. It's been a long time since I've heard it suggested of them, though.
Unlikely that Creation even knew about Fedcon and if they did even cared. As Mike said up thread, Creation events are scheduled far ahead, whoever did the booking for FedConUSA really boned up big time not only scheduling after a Creation Con but also on Father's day weekend.
And creation's site only has info on the upcoming cons, though there is a breakdown of the Supernatural Con on the Creation's Supernatural Myspace Page.
So really it boils down to whomever did the hotel booking didn't think to do any research ahead of time. Besides, as was mentioned, you're talking enough of a difference in audience that the knock on affect on attendance would minimal at best.
It was bad planning.
Edit: Surprise, there is info on the creation site about the Dallas Con: http://www.creationent.com/cal/supernatural_tx.htm
From the person I talked to at the Hotel, who happened to be one of the managers, I was told that Creation didn't book their Convention until long after the Fedcon USA convention had been booked. I think she told me that the Supernatural convention was booked since Feb or Mar of 08. I asked her because there were a small group of us talking about it there at the convention. I'm sure a call to the Hotel could clear that up though. I disagree that a similar convention being held a week before would not hurt the ticket sales. I think it probably did hurt it some, people can only afford to go to so many things, especially in one month. How much it hurt ticket sales for the Fedcon Convention would be the question. And why did Creation go in and book a similar event there for the week before ?
Creation does have past event listings on their site but that Supernatural convention is not listed among them.
Creation does have past event listings on their site but that Supernatural convention is not listed among them.
Several cons aren't listed on their past event archives.Ans assuming for a moment I buy into your explanation/story, then it still a stupid move on the part of the con organizers not to push the thing back into a more advantageous slot. Of course, that still ignoring the fact that they planned the con for father's day weekend, which in and off itself begs the question: Did these guys even look at a calendar?