Will the SCE characters ever reappear?

[Dancing Doctor]

Wasn't part of the inspection tour from the A Time to... books to see which officers were having trouble going back to a peacetime existence?

If so, then how the hell was Leybenzon overlooked?

 

[BrotherBenny]

It's easy for us civilians to say that, but officers are trained to follow the chain of command, to obey orders whether they agree with them or not. Right or wrong, Picard was the one committing mutiny. It wasn't simply a decision of whose orders to follow. It was a decision between obeying lawful orders and participating in a criminal act.

Kadohata's responsibility is to obey the orders of her commanding officer, not anyone else further up the chain unless said commanding officer is removed from command due to medical reasons. Her responsibility is not to an admiral with his head up his ass who has consistently been clueless.

Picard knew, for the most part, what he was doing and Calhoun had it when suggesting General Order Zero, that Picard be given carte blanche when dealing with the Borg since other than 7 of 9, he has the most knowledge about the Borg.

 

[Christopher]

Wasn't part of the inspection tour from the A Time to... books to see which officers were having trouble going back to a peacetime existence?

If so, then how the hell was Leybenzon overlooked?

Leybenzon wasn't on the Enterprise at that time.

Kadohata's responsibility is to obey the orders of her commanding officer, not anyone else further up the chain unless said commanding officer is removed from command due to medical reasons. Her responsibility is not to an admiral with his head up his ass who has consistently been clueless.

Since when are junior officers not required to obey someone even higher in rank than their commanding officer? Does that mean that, say, Lt. Taurik only has to obey Geordi LaForge and can ignore Captain Picard's orders? Of course it doesn't work that way.

And you're missing the point of the military hierarchy if you think that anyone's opinion of a senior officer's judgment has any relevance to the decision whatsoever. Officers must obey any lawful order whether they personally think it's a good idea or not. Hell, that should be obvious -- they wouldn't be orders if they were contingent upon the agreement of the subordinate.

Picard, Worf and Geordi were the mutineers. They were breaking the law, violating their sworn oaths as officers, by disobeying a direct order from their superiors. Therefore, any orders they gave were unlawful, and duty required their subordinates to disobey those orders, whether they personally agreed with them or not. Kadohata did what her discipline and training demanded -- she placed her duty over her personal opinions, disobeyed an unlawful order, and obeyed a lawful order. She was placed in an unfair and impossible situation, and she resolved it by behaving in exactly the way she'd been trained to behave. And no one should fault her for that. All these complaints about her being a jerk, all these condemnations based on sentimental reactions about what felt right to the reader or about personal loyalty or about any of that, are missing the point. It's not about opinions or feelings. It's about law and duty and an officer's obligation to set personal opinions aside in favor of discipline.

That's why Picard forgave them -- because he was the one breaking the law. Even though he may have been vindicated after the fact, he violated regulations and his duty in order to achieve his ends. And it would be totally unjust to condemn his junior officers for doing their duty as they were trained to do it.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Wasn't part of the inspection tour from the A Time to... books to see which officers were having trouble going back to a peacetime existence?

If so, then how the hell was Leybenzon overlooked?

Leybenzon wasn't on the Enterprise at that time.

Kadohata's responsibility is to obey the orders of her commanding officer, not anyone else further up the chain unless said commanding officer is removed from command due to medical reasons. Her responsibility is not to an admiral with his head up his ass who has consistently been clueless.

Since when are junior officers not required to obey someone even higher in rank than their commanding officer? Does that mean that, say, Lt. Taurik only has to obey Geordi LaForge and can ignore Captain Picard's orders? Of course it doesn't work that way.

And you're missing the point of the military hierarchy if you think that anyone's opinion of a senior officer's judgment has any relevance to the decision whatsoever. Officers must obey any lawful order whether they personally think it's a good idea or not. Hell, that should be obvious -- they wouldn't be orders if they were contingent upon the agreement of the subordinate.

Picard, Worf and Geordi were the mutineers. They were breaking the law, violating their sworn oaths as officers, by disobeying a direct order from their superiors. Therefore, any orders they gave were unlawful, and duty required their subordinates to disobey those orders, whether they personally agreed with them or not. Kadohata did what her discipline and training demanded -- she placed her duty over her personal opinions, disobeyed an unlawful order, and obeyed a lawful order. She was placed in an unfair and impossible situation, and she resolved it by behaving in exactly the way she'd been trained to behave. And no one should fault her for that. All these complaints about her being a jerk, all these condemnations based on sentimental reactions about what felt right to the reader or about personal loyalty or about any of that, are missing the point. It's not about opinions or feelings. It's about law and duty and an officer's obligation to set personal opinions aside in favor of discipline.

That's why Picard forgave them -- because he was the one breaking the law. Even though he may have been vindicated after the fact, he violated regulations and his duty in order to achieve his ends. And it would be totally unjust to condemn his junior officers for doing their duty as they were trained to do it.

I was referring to commanding officer as in Picard regarding the Enterprise. Kadohata's duty is obey her captan's--Picard's--orders, not Jellico's. If Picard is breaking the law then he will be punished, not those who were following his orders because if they disobeyed him, it would be--and was--mutiny. Besides, everyone in Starfleet who has ever come into contact with Jellico knows that he's a clueless moron and as posted upthread, he dislikes independent thinkers, preferring officers who say how high when he says jump. Jellico's tactical strategy was dung and Picard did what Picard does, saves the day.

I remember a quote from the SCE eBook, Here There Be Monsters between Duffy and Stevens. Duffy says that once he knew Picard was in charge, everything was going to work out fine.

That's the way I see it too.

 

[Christopher]

I was referring to commanding officer as in Picard regarding the Enterprise. Kadohata's duty is obey her captan's--Picard's--orders, not Jellico's.

You completely miss the point of my analogy. If that were true in that case, it would be true in the case I cited as well, and that's ridiculous. That is not the way the service works. An admiral's orders trump a captain's orders every time. If a subordinate could overrule a superior's orders in any context, there'd be no way the chain of command could function.

Besides, even if your postulate were remotely true, it would not be applicable here. Picard was relieved of duty once he disobeyed the admiral's orders. He was technically no longer in command of the ship at that point, so he had no authority to give orders to Kadohata or anyone else. Command then passed to Worf and La Forge, who both refused it and were relieved of duty in turn. Kadohata was next in line (although really she should've been next after Worf, not La Forge). At that point, she was in command of the Enterprise, and she was given an order by her direct superior.

If Picard is breaking the law then he will be punished, not those who were following his orders because if they disobeyed him, it would be--and was--mutiny.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. As I already said, soldiers are obligated to obey any lawful order from a superior officer, but are not obligated to obey unlawful orders. And since Picard had been relieved of command, he had no lawful authority to issue orders anyway. Anyone who followed him was doing so out of personal choice, not duty.

Besides, everyone in Starfleet who has ever come into contact with Jellico knows that he's a clueless moron ...

What does that have to do with anything? For one thing, as I said, opinions don't matter. Most soldiers -- indeed, most people in any hierarchy -- think their superiors are clueless morons, but that doesn't give them a license to disobey orders. That's why they're called "orders" rather than "suggestions."

For another thing, it was Nechayev, not Jellico, who relieved Picard and the others of command and ordered Kadohata to bring the ship back to Earth.

 

[JD]

I have one quick question, and keep in mind I haven't read BD yet. How much did Miranda have to do with Picard when she was on the D? Because if she was pretty much just a regular crewmember who didn't deal that much with Picard, then I could see why she would't be attatched enough to him to disobey Jellico's orders for him.

 

[Christopher]

^^Good point. There were over a thousand people in the crew, and not all of them would've dealt directly with Picard. Generally they would've dealt with their own department heads (Data in Kadohata's case) and with Riker.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

It's easy for us civilians to say that, but officers are trained to follow the chain of command, to obey orders whether they agree with them or not. Right or wrong, Picard was the one committing mutiny. It wasn't simply a decision of whose orders to follow. It was a decision between obeying lawful orders and participating in a criminal act.

Maybe somebody can clarify something for people like me who don`t have experience with the military (not to forget, Starfleet is not the real life military, but anyway):

Is disobeying orders, in other words, insubordination, automatically mutiny, as you say a criminal act?

My definition of mutiny is that the crew is relieving the captain and taking command by force, like by literally pointing a gun at the captain.

Yes, I remember episodes like “Valiant” and “The Pegasus”. And if Picard (or other captains like Kirk) would have turned into robots thanks to these drills, the consequences would have been very serious indeed.

Speaking of that, what about Admirals who give orders that prove to be completely wrong at the end? Are there any consequences, is there any punishment? That is probably a really stupid question because the answer is probably no. As you say, these were not illegal orders. Short sighted and dangerous, yes, but not illegal.

I expected more from Kadohata, Leybenzon and not to forget the officers who supported them. I am sure, Picard doesn`t want to have robots as his officers. He wants people who think, who also challenge him when something goes wrong. I never heard any good reason for the mutiny except the broken record that orders are orders, no matter what. The chain of command has to be followed at any cost.

My favourite book is still the New Frontier novel “Once Burned” and in it is an interview between a younger Calhoun and a Captain who is about to choose him as his first officer.

This is what Calhoun said and I agree 100 %: (Page 66/67)

I acknowledge authority. I acknowledge that those in authority have power over me. But that is not a condition that I take either lightly or for granted, no matter how much they endeavor to drill the chain of command into me. When those in authority are acting stupidly, I do not feel constrained to join them. That doesn`t make for good officers. Just more stupidity. Rules and regulations are not handed down from high from the gods. They`re made by people, mortal people, no more, no less. People who can`t be expected to anticipate every eventuality. What some people perceive as immutable laws that restrict our actions, I see as guidelines that indicate what a particular body of opinion-makers believes to be the best way of completing a mission and coming home safely. But just because they believe it to be the best does not automatically make it so, and under no circumstance is it the only one. And if there are consequences for deviating from the limits that others have made, then I will accept those consequences. But no one, sir, with all due respect, is going to tell me how to live my life or force me to do that which I know, in my heart, to be wrong. I will be free, in thought and action.

There is a lot more but maybe just one more quote from that chapter. Pretty much at the end before Calhoun got the job the captain asked him what is the single greatest responsibility that a Starfleet officer has? – To do the right thing. The gods decide what is right. I just do my best to interpret.

What is right and what is lawful is not always the same. As I keep saying, I am very curious if you will be able to make Kadohata and Leybenzon more likeable because at the moment I am very surprised that Picard didn`t get rid of them.

 

[Christopher]

It's easy for us civilians to say that, but officers are trained to follow the chain of command, to obey orders whether they agree with them or not. Right or wrong, Picard was the one committing mutiny. It wasn't simply a decision of whose orders to follow. It was a decision between obeying lawful orders and participating in a criminal act.

Maybe somebody can clarify something for people like me who don`t have experience with the military (not to forget, Starfleet is not the real life military, but anyway):

Is disobeying orders, in other words, insubordination, automatically mutiny, as you say a criminal act?

My definition of mutiny is that the crew is relieving the captain and taking command by force, like by literally pointing a gun at the captain.

Okay, I guess you're right. I overstated the case. Picard refused to obey an order and was relieved of command. But as I said, that left him in no position to give orders anymore.

I expected more from Kadohata, Leybenzon and not to forget the officers who supported them. I am sure, Picard doesn`t want to have robots as his officers. He wants people who think, who also challenge him when something goes wrong. I never heard any good reason for the mutiny except the broken record that orders are orders, no matter what. The chain of command has to be followed at any cost.

I agree with what someone said above -- there was no reason for most of the characters to assume that Picard's plan was any less futile and crazy than Nechayev's orders. At least returning to Earth and taking a physical stand against the Borg was doing something tangible; Kadohata and the rest had no way of knowing that going after the Doomsday Machine would work out in the least. It was a huge gamble that could've failed disastrously. So I don't think Kadohata was unthinkingly following orders. I think she used her own judgment, and that judgment led her to a different conclusion than the one Picard had reached. Same with T'Lana. I don't know about Leybenzon; I think he's just generally ornery.

My point about the orders was simply that Kadohata and the rest did not do anything technically wrong according to regulations, so it's inappropriate to call them mutineers or traitors. As for whether their actions were morally right, that's a matter of judgment, and the fact is that even the best-intentioned people are going to make different judgments from time to time. Disagreeing with our beloved hero captain shouldn't be seen as grounds for defining a character as corrupt or irredeemable. Especially when it's a situation like this where the decision is not at all clear-cut, where there is no obvious right or wrong choice. An insane gamble that works against all odds can be called right in retrospect, but an insane gamble that fails would be deemed wrong. At the time, nobody had any idea whether Picard's plan would prove to be the right choice or a tragically wrong one. So people of good judgment could honestly, fairly come to the conclusion that Picard's plan was too risky to try, certainly too risky to be worth disobeying orders for.


Anyway, what does any of this have to do with SCE characters again?

 

[Rosalind]

Christopher said: Anyway, what does any of this have to do with SCE characters again?

nothing. but since:

1. the question was answered
2. it's been an interesting debate

I decided unless the thread becomes unpleasant, the debate can continue.

 

[Trent Roman]

I agree with what someone said above -- there was no reason for most of the characters to assume that Picard's plan was any less futile and crazy than Nechayev's orders. At least returning to Earth and taking a physical stand against the Borg was doing something tangible; Kadohata and the rest had no way of knowing that going after the Doomsday Machine would work out in the least. It was a huge gamble that could've failed disastrously. So I don't think Kadohata was unthinkingly following orders. I think she used her own judgment, and that judgment led her to a different conclusion than the one Picard had reached. Same with T'Lana. I don't know about Leybenzon; I think he's just generally ornery.

It was a huge improbability, but it couldn't have failed disastrously, because all it would have meant had the plan not panned out is that the Enterprise would have been destroyed along with the rest of the fleet and Earth - the exact same result had they not tried to fetch the planet killer in the first place. Which is why I said that taking that sliver of a chance is always better than giving into a known futility. Kadohata's judgment in this matter was extremely poor. I don't give a flying fruit about orders or who is giving them; she's welcome to stick 'em in a pipe and smoke 'em, as far as I'm concerned. Three people before her were given those same orders and refused to obey, recognizing that they were wrong. She chose a course of action leading to certain failure when an alternative, no matter how remote, was present (and one must wonder whether the notion of 'lawful order' needs to be revised if collective suicide is considered legal - I order you to drink the Kool-Aid). She chose to heed the counsel of individuals who were under considerable strain if not bordering on panic over the counsel of those with the greatest expertise in the crisis they were facing. For both those reasons, I'd say her behaviour would have to be considered flawed.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Christopher]

Okay, and that's a matter of individual judgment, and individuals differ. Plus, people don't always make the best decisions in a crisis situation. That doesn't make them corrupt or criminal or irredeemable. It makes them human(oid).

I'd complain that people are judging Kadohata too much on a single decision she made out of an entire career, but of course, people have only seen her in two books so far, so it's hard to get a broader sense of her overall career performance.

 

[William Leisner]

but of course, people have only seen her in two books so far, so it's hard to get a broader sense of her overall career performance.

True, but we also know that Data had handpicked her as second officer when he was due to take Riker's post, probably after considering 4,747 candidates and weighing 7,474 different variables. That should speak volumes.

 

[Christopher]

^^But that's telling rather than showing. It's not the same.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Wasn't part of the inspection tour from the A Time to... books to see which officers were having trouble going back to a peacetime existence?

If so, then how the hell was Leybenzon overlooked?

Leybenzon wasn't on the Enterprise at that time.

Despite the way it was presented (if I'm not mistaken) the inspection tour wasn't constrained to just the Enterprise. I believe that several times from about...Love on, AFAICR, mentioned a list of places to be inspected based on the assumption that many people were having a hard time adapting to peacetime conditions.

Also, apart from the inspection tour, a person with Leybenzon's...mental state should have been picked up much sooner than June of 2380 (or thereabouts).

 

[Technobuilder]

Wasn't part of the inspection tour from the A Time to... books to see which officers were having trouble going back to a peacetime existence?

If so, then how the hell was Leybenzon overlooked?

Leybenzon wasn't on the Enterprise at that time.

Despite the way it was presented (if I'm not mistaken) the inspection tour wasn't constrained to just the Enterprise. I believe that several times from about...Love on, AFAICR, mentioned a list of places to be inspected based on the assumption that many people were having a hard time adapting to peacetime conditions.

Also, apart from the inspection tour, a person with Leybenzon's...mental state should have been picked up much sooner than June of 2380 (or thereabouts).

Maybe that's it!

Maybe the reason Leybenzon was acting so different from the person we saw in Q&A was because he's had a mental break and is coo-coo.

How else can you explain his situations with Worf from one book to the next.

 

[JoeZhang]

Leybenzon wasn't on the Enterprise at that time.

Despite the way it was presented (if I'm not mistaken) the inspection tour wasn't constrained to just the Enterprise. I believe that several times from about...Love on, AFAICR, mentioned a list of places to be inspected based on the assumption that many people were having a hard time adapting to peacetime conditions.

Also, apart from the inspection tour, a person with Leybenzon's...mental state should have been picked up much sooner than June of 2380 (or thereabouts).

Maybe that's it!

Maybe the reason Leybenzon was acting so different from the person we saw in Q&A was because he's had a mental break and is coo-coo.

How else can you explain his situations with Worf from one book to the next.

Really bad writing?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Despite the way it was presented (if I'm not mistaken) the inspection tour wasn't constrained to just the Enterprise. I believe that several times from about...Love on, AFAICR, mentioned a list of places to be inspected based on the assumption that many people were having a hard time adapting to peacetime conditions.

Also, apart from the inspection tour, a person with Leybenzon's...mental state should have been picked up much sooner than June of 2380 (or thereabouts).

Maybe that's it!

Maybe the reason Leybenzon was acting so different from the person we saw in Q&A was because he's had a mental break and is coo-coo.

How else can you explain his situations with Worf from one book to the next.

Really bad writing?

That works too.

 

[captcalhoun]

Really bad writing?

bad editorial coordination more like

 

[Defcon]

Really bad writing?

bad editorial coordination more like

I agree.