I had a young Michael Keating in that part.
Day of the Vipers (Please mark Spoilers!)
- Thread starter Newspaper Taxi
- Start date
I had a young Michael Keating in that part.
I just finished this and I wanted to add to the positive reviews. I really enjoyed this book. I was suprised how the occupation ende dup going down. I envisioned a War of the Worlds-type scenerio, not a V type take over (if there was an epsidoe of DS9 that hinted at this, as some have implied, I missed the reference). It was facinating (heh) reading a first contact story where none of the participents were human/Federation.
I felt for the Bajorans... Spoilers...(my attempts at using the tags failed, sorry)
I so much wanted to see the truth of the supposed Tzenkathi attack to come out. The cold calculation in that just chilled me to the bone.
This was my first James Swallow novel. I would love to read more.
I felt for the Bajorans... Spoilers...(my attempts at using the tags failed, sorry)
I so much wanted to see the truth of the supposed Tzenkathi attack to come out. The cold calculation in that just chilled me to the bone.
This was my first James Swallow novel. I would love to read more.
I think the only "reference" is an inconsistency -- different episodes referred to the occupation lasting 40, 50, even 60 years. One way of reconciling that was to assume that the Cardassian presence on Bajor began a decade or two before the formal occupation began. Apparently Marco and the authors chose to disregard the 60-year figure and make it a 50-year presence and a 40-year occupation. This is consistent with the Memory Alpha article on the occupation, though it's unclear where it got its dates from (or if it even listed them that way before the books came out).
Yeah that was also my first thought, and then my second was why would Gwen marry Ianto?
Well, I'm a little behind. Just finished the book last night. Obvious spoilers follow...
...
Bravo, James Swallow.
A superb beginning to this trilogy. I was excited when this was announced but I was concerned if the subject matter was interesting enough to sustain three books. All of my small fears have been put aside. The beginnings of the Occupation from the "first contact" to the slow buildup of arms to the final, ultimate assault are interesting and exciting to see. I love how all of the different viewpoints give us a complete picture. Everyone has something to do and a part to play - the Cardassians, the Orelians, and the Bajorans are all explored with satisfying detail. I love it!
I noticed the Star Wars reference on p388. Cananyone tell me where the other hidden references were? I missed them dangit!
Two of my favorite scenes were towards the end. First, I'm a sucker for good starship action...so Dukat's Galor chasing Darrah and Syjin through the Denorios (sp?) Belt with guns blazing was awesome.
Second, Dukat's chastizing/scoffing/berating of Ico and Kell in their final scene was vintage nastiness. They both outrank him yet he finishes the encounter as the clear winner. This was my favorite scene in the novel. Dukat was written perfectly here. Excellent!
Again, kudos to James Swallow. You've written a hell of a tale. I hope books 2 and 3 can maintain your level of excellence. Welcome to the fold, sir.
...
Bravo, James Swallow.
A superb beginning to this trilogy. I was excited when this was announced but I was concerned if the subject matter was interesting enough to sustain three books. All of my small fears have been put aside. The beginnings of the Occupation from the "first contact" to the slow buildup of arms to the final, ultimate assault are interesting and exciting to see. I love how all of the different viewpoints give us a complete picture. Everyone has something to do and a part to play - the Cardassians, the Orelians, and the Bajorans are all explored with satisfying detail. I love it!
I noticed the Star Wars reference on p388. Cananyone tell me where the other hidden references were? I missed them dangit!
Two of my favorite scenes were towards the end. First, I'm a sucker for good starship action...so Dukat's Galor chasing Darrah and Syjin through the Denorios (sp?) Belt with guns blazing was awesome.
Second, Dukat's chastizing/scoffing/berating of Ico and Kell in their final scene was vintage nastiness. They both outrank him yet he finishes the encounter as the clear winner. This was my favorite scene in the novel. Dukat was written perfectly here. Excellent!
Again, kudos to James Swallow. You've written a hell of a tale. I hope books 2 and 3 can maintain your level of excellence. Welcome to the fold, sir.
Thanks to Dukesman and everyone else for the kind words...
There are blink-and-you'll-miss-'em nods to Space 1999, Battlestar Galactica (original series) and Space: Above and Beyond in there too...
I noticed the Star Wars reference on p388. Cananyone tell me where the other hidden references were? I missed them dangit!
There are blink-and-you'll-miss-'em nods to Space 1999, Battlestar Galactica (original series) and Space: Above and Beyond in there too...
I also wish to say how much I enjoyed this book, it was nice to be reading a Trek book by a British writer and I thourghly enjoyed the set up of the occupation, I must admit when reading it, I didn't really think of V for Vendetta as someone pointed out up thread, just the way that things seem to be heading in this country with lots and lots of small things adding up to one hell of a power shift and s**t storm. (which is what happens in V lol)
Was Gwen a referance to Torchwood and where abouts in Wales did you envision her from?
Was Gwen a referance to Torchwood and where abouts in Wales did you envision her from?
Jim's hardly the first UK author to write a Star Trek novel. John Peel, Peter Morwood, and most recently Una McCormack are all Brit-types.
I already know he's not, but the vast majority of Trek Novelists are from North America so once in a while it's nice to read something which dosn't have so many Americancentric references (not that theres anything wrong with that and nor was there much of a chance in Vipers) and the comment about Gwens Cute welsh accent I doubt many writers outside of this side of the pond would bring up.
Yup; originally the name was just a placeholder, but I decided I liked it and kept it in. As I say upthread, I imagined Eve Miles playing Lt. Jones in the "movie".
As for where she's from, I'd say South Wales. The reason I actually decided to put a Welsh character in the book is because the Star Trek TV shows have shown characters from other parts of the UK (Montgomery Scott - Scottish; Miles O'Brien - Irish; Malcolm Reed - English) but not Wales. I felt they were a bit underepresented...
I'm curious as to what prompted the idea of a Hendrikspool accent being similar to a Welsh one.
Yup; originally the name was just a placeholder, but I decided I liked it and kept it in. As I say upthread, I imagined Eve Miles playing Lt. Jones in the "movie".
As for where she's from, I'd say South Wales. The reason I actually decided to put a Welsh character in the book is because the Star Trek TV shows have shown characters from other parts of the UK (Montgomery Scott - Scottish; Miles O'Brien - Irish; Malcolm Reed - English) but not Wales. I felt they were a bit underepresented...
I thought it might be a nice change to every accent in the Star Trek universe sounding like an American one...
And there's a character introduced in Greater Than the Sum who's described as having a "light Denevan accent," the specifics of which are left to the reader's imagination.
^ Which is why I decided that Miranda Kadohata had a British accent rather than an American one.
Tip o' the Union flag to you, sah.
I'm about halfway through "Day of the Vipers" and so far I quite liked what I read, a very unusual Trek-novel, reminds me a bit of "Articles of the Federation", lots of politics, intrigues and a large bunch of unfamilar but interesting characters. "Day of the Vipers" seems to hold the pace of the awesome "Forged in Fire", 2008 seems to become a very good vintage...
Well, I finally finished it last night (costing me several hours of sleep)!
Absolutely fantastic read through and through. Darrah Mace and Rhan Ico have become two of my favorite literature-only characters and I look forward to seeing more of them.
While I had expected a more direct invasion of Bajor, I have to admit I far preferred the methods demonstrated in this book, largely because that fits the Cardassian psyche so well. Ever since reading A Stitch in Time, I've become fascinated with Cardassian culture and this book expanded greatly on that.
I have only one niggling problem: in the in media res prologue, the setting is described as Day Zero of the Occupation, yet in the last time jump, the following events are marked as One Month Ago to Day Zero. My issue is that the following events seemed to me, unless I'm horribly mistaken, to have occurred over a very short time and lead directly into the scene in the prologue.
That niggling problem aside, my only personal problem is the death of Syjin. I had hoped that he and Mace (and Osen, too) would be the foundations of the Resistance. But I suppose with the revelation of Osen being dead and replaced with Pasir (which I really should have seen coming), that is somewhat moot. Don't get me wrong, I understand the purpose of Syjin's death, but I had looked forward to him and Mace working together in the Resistance.
Absolutely fantastic read through and through. Darrah Mace and Rhan Ico have become two of my favorite literature-only characters and I look forward to seeing more of them.
While I had expected a more direct invasion of Bajor, I have to admit I far preferred the methods demonstrated in this book, largely because that fits the Cardassian psyche so well. Ever since reading A Stitch in Time, I've become fascinated with Cardassian culture and this book expanded greatly on that.
I have only one niggling problem: in the in media res prologue, the setting is described as Day Zero of the Occupation, yet in the last time jump, the following events are marked as One Month Ago to Day Zero. My issue is that the following events seemed to me, unless I'm horribly mistaken, to have occurred over a very short time and lead directly into the scene in the prologue.
That niggling problem aside, my only personal problem is the death of Syjin. I had hoped that he and Mace (and Osen, too) would be the foundations of the Resistance. But I suppose with the revelation of Osen being dead and replaced with Pasir (which I really should have seen coming), that is somewhat moot. Don't get me wrong, I understand the purpose of Syjin's death, but I had looked forward to him and Mace working together in the Resistance.
I see your concern and that was something that bugged me briefly at the beginning, but then I realized that because of the Cardassians' hate for the Oralians (and my prediction that the Cardassians would use the annexation of Bajor as means to completely eliminate them) that the Oralians would mostly forgotten by Cardassians and Bajorians alike. Of course, there would be some remnants of the religion still existing by the 2370s, but hidden quietly as depicted in A Stitch in Time.
I'm glad you covered this. I had a few issues with the age difference when I first started reading the book particularly in regards to Dukat and Jaro. However, I began to consider how the aging of aliens could and most likely do differ from humans and quickly became more comfortable with the notion as you outlined. Although I'll admit that I had forgotten the Dukat/2346 reference and Els Renora being described as a hundred years old, so with those facts in mind, I now see the stepping stones were already there.
Nooooooo! I was afraid that was the implication! Between the Welsh accent, the long black hair, and the name Gwen, I immediately thought of Eve Myles, which I tried desperately to get out of my head because I hate Gwen Cooper with the passion of a thousand burning suns!
This is my review of "Day of the Vipers". It contains spoilers:
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I am surprised how much I enjoyed the book. It is very interesting and very well written. I mainly enjoyed it because of the complex politics and rich characterizations. Nevertheless, before I started it I was a bit sceptical, wondering how much I will actually like it because my memory about details in DS9`s history leaves somewhat to be desired and on top of that, when I looked at the list at the back of the book the only character I was familiar with was Dukat plus some names that sound familiar but I can`t remember any more from the episodes in question. By the way, I found the listings at the back of the book very helpful and interesting.
But I was pleasantly surprised. I had no problem to understand the story although I am sure there are a lot of Easter Eggs, hints and connections I am missing. Most important is, I was able to find an emotional connection to the story and quickly cared a lot for Bennek the Cardassian and Darrah the Bajoran.
This was an invasion by stealth, by manipulation on a multitude of levels, through the back door instead of a full frontal attack. In a sick way I agreed with what Ico thought. She considered her handiwork to be a complex, delicate piece of art leading to its shattering climax. What the Cardassians did was very clever. They minimized bloodshed among their own troops but at the same time got rid of the Oralians. They already had their roots firmly in place before the official occupation started.
Nevertheless, James Swallow showed Cardassians who are no less three dimensional than the Bajorans. I found it very interesting how the author wrote Dukat. I remember from watching the series that for a very long time, I had very mixed feelings about Dukat. For a time I even liked him on some level but to me it seems the writers of the TV series decided one day to turn Dukat into a really dark character, a real villain. I think James Swallow made the right choice here and wrote him as a full blown villain from day one. We can understand a villain but I couldn`t feel any sympathy for that man.
The author described his motives very well. I understand Dukat`s twisted, selfish logic. In order to simplify it, it is not only all right but even his duty to take what Cardassia and his family needs from a people he considers to be weak and inferior. I noticed that he took relatively small steps in that direction at the beginning but became bolder and more ruthless over the years. His interaction with Ico was very interesting. Dukat loathes the Obsidian Order but even if it wasn`t spelled out, I am sure on a certain level he was afraid of Ico and with good reason.
What I like about how the Cardassian side is written is that we find this evil side in all shades, from dark black to a light shade of grey. People like Dukat and Ico selected their inner circle of people who actually did the dirty work with them very carefully because when reading this book I never lost the feeling, if everyone in the military, not to mention people who aren`t, would know what is going on, they wouldn`t support it. I think that was a very important aspect of the book.
I immediately liked Bennek who is definitely the other extreme of the Cardassians portrayed in this book. In spite of his naivite and innocence in many ways I admired how he never got corrupted, how he always pulled himself together and faced the challenges the Oralians had to deal with bravely. Bennek was a good man and I must admit, his death was a shock to me.
When the book returned to the events in the first chapter, I fully expected that Gar would indeed help. I remember that I was thinking that Gar`s rescue was somewhat strange but forgot about that quickly because I was glad that this character is still around. I never would have expected this! Nice writing, in my case the author definitely succeeded getting me surprised and shocked. I regret Bennek`s death but it fits so well into the story so that I have no problems to accept it without being annoyed at this decision.
Religion is a big topic in this book. It is intertwined into so many aspects. James Swallow also deals with the complexity of religion in ways that made me think more than once. In general, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that everyone would be better off without any religion in spite I understand that it enriches the lives of a lot of people. But I think it causes more trouble than it is worth. One reason is, so far I haven`t met anybody who could tell me just one purely religious (not human or in a broader sense, sentient) value that is worth defending, even dying for. We can have charities, we can care for each other without any religious aspects whatsoever.
“Day of the Vipers” certainly doesn`t show religion in a positive light. At the beginning of the book it was mentioned that Dukat was told stories about the oppressive history of the Oralian way. I can`t say if that is true or propaganda or, what is probably most likely, a mix of both. From what I could see the Oralians in this book are genuinely trying to benefit others and although their belief is strong, they use words in order to find new followers, not violence. That is positive but on the other hand, it seems they lost contact with the real world. They lost the ability to also see the negative sides of what happens around them. They reminded me of sheep among a pack of wolves. They didn`t have a chance and if the Oralian Way will indeed be reborn one day, it also has to develop some teeth, an ability to defend itself but hopefully without losing the peaceful, strong ideals that made this religious organization such a positive movement, a movement that brought worlds together.
Although I have my problems with organized religions, I appreciate it that the Bajorans get a lot of strength from their beliefs and that it helped many to survive during the occupation. Nevertheless, the book showed the dangers of blind faith again. I know, the Kai was ill but the rest of the high ranking people around her were not. The vision sent by the Prophets made the Kai much too trusting and blind – and her followers were unable and unwilling to see what is going on. The Cardassians manipulated them with ease. I found it sickening but not surprising that the Vedeks attacked the Oralians in the end, blinded by hatred and fanaticism. I understand that they had better reasons than tasteless cartoons and the naming of a teddy bear but even at that time, if the Vedeks really wanted to, they would have realized that Bennek and his people had been framed. Instead they allowed themselves to be used by the Cardassian occupiers. I hope lessons will be learned.
The other character I immediately liked was Darrah Mace, the Bajoran law man. I am very glad that he survived at the end of the book and that the last pages of this novel had in spite of what happened a positive hopeful ending. When reading this book I had to wonder what would happen if the Cardassians or aliens like him would come to the real life Earth. I think we would be less trusting. I think the Cardassians were right when it was mentioned that the Bajorans because they were a relatively peaceful species for so long lacked the experience and mindset to be a match for the scheming Cardassians. On the other hand, the pattern of surrounding yourself with greedy, power hungry and spineless people is also familiar here when looking at various dictatorships.
I enjoyed the appearances of Nechayev and Jones. In this book we are not meeting Admiral Nechayev but Lieutenant Nechayev, a woman with much less influence than in later years. Nevertheless, if I hadn`t known better, I wouldn`t have noticed. This was the Nechayev I grew to like and respect. I really fail to understand that it is more important to destroy a listening post within Federation space which would move somewhere else if the Federation is helping the Bajorans before it is too late and instead allowed the Cardassians to gain a powerful military foothold at the doorstep of the Federation. I am sure, it would be much easier to locate a new listening post in Federation space and get rid of it than getting the Cardassians out of Bajoran space.
I haven`t read the rest of the trilogy yet but I have the suspicion that this was not really the main reason not to help. Fighting the Cardassians openly outside of Federation space would be seen as an act of war against Cardassia and the Federation was unwilling to start one for aliens who are not members. I haven`t forgotten that the Federation also didn`t do much later, it seems. Even giving humanitarian aid to Bajoran refugees was the exception, not the rule. If I remember correctly, when that was mentioned in TNG, the Prime Directive excuse was used.
Also so early in her career, Nechayev stood up for what she believed in but also knew what battles she can win. Her promise to Darrah made me wonder – what did she actually do to help? This little part of the book opens the door to so many interesting story ideas!
I think I will stay with Terok Nor a while longer and am looking forward to it to start the next book tomorrow.
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*
*
I am surprised how much I enjoyed the book. It is very interesting and very well written. I mainly enjoyed it because of the complex politics and rich characterizations. Nevertheless, before I started it I was a bit sceptical, wondering how much I will actually like it because my memory about details in DS9`s history leaves somewhat to be desired and on top of that, when I looked at the list at the back of the book the only character I was familiar with was Dukat plus some names that sound familiar but I can`t remember any more from the episodes in question. By the way, I found the listings at the back of the book very helpful and interesting.
But I was pleasantly surprised. I had no problem to understand the story although I am sure there are a lot of Easter Eggs, hints and connections I am missing. Most important is, I was able to find an emotional connection to the story and quickly cared a lot for Bennek the Cardassian and Darrah the Bajoran.
This was an invasion by stealth, by manipulation on a multitude of levels, through the back door instead of a full frontal attack. In a sick way I agreed with what Ico thought. She considered her handiwork to be a complex, delicate piece of art leading to its shattering climax. What the Cardassians did was very clever. They minimized bloodshed among their own troops but at the same time got rid of the Oralians. They already had their roots firmly in place before the official occupation started.
Nevertheless, James Swallow showed Cardassians who are no less three dimensional than the Bajorans. I found it very interesting how the author wrote Dukat. I remember from watching the series that for a very long time, I had very mixed feelings about Dukat. For a time I even liked him on some level but to me it seems the writers of the TV series decided one day to turn Dukat into a really dark character, a real villain. I think James Swallow made the right choice here and wrote him as a full blown villain from day one. We can understand a villain but I couldn`t feel any sympathy for that man.
The author described his motives very well. I understand Dukat`s twisted, selfish logic. In order to simplify it, it is not only all right but even his duty to take what Cardassia and his family needs from a people he considers to be weak and inferior. I noticed that he took relatively small steps in that direction at the beginning but became bolder and more ruthless over the years. His interaction with Ico was very interesting. Dukat loathes the Obsidian Order but even if it wasn`t spelled out, I am sure on a certain level he was afraid of Ico and with good reason.
What I like about how the Cardassian side is written is that we find this evil side in all shades, from dark black to a light shade of grey. People like Dukat and Ico selected their inner circle of people who actually did the dirty work with them very carefully because when reading this book I never lost the feeling, if everyone in the military, not to mention people who aren`t, would know what is going on, they wouldn`t support it. I think that was a very important aspect of the book.
I immediately liked Bennek who is definitely the other extreme of the Cardassians portrayed in this book. In spite of his naivite and innocence in many ways I admired how he never got corrupted, how he always pulled himself together and faced the challenges the Oralians had to deal with bravely. Bennek was a good man and I must admit, his death was a shock to me.
When the book returned to the events in the first chapter, I fully expected that Gar would indeed help. I remember that I was thinking that Gar`s rescue was somewhat strange but forgot about that quickly because I was glad that this character is still around. I never would have expected this! Nice writing, in my case the author definitely succeeded getting me surprised and shocked. I regret Bennek`s death but it fits so well into the story so that I have no problems to accept it without being annoyed at this decision.
Religion is a big topic in this book. It is intertwined into so many aspects. James Swallow also deals with the complexity of religion in ways that made me think more than once. In general, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that everyone would be better off without any religion in spite I understand that it enriches the lives of a lot of people. But I think it causes more trouble than it is worth. One reason is, so far I haven`t met anybody who could tell me just one purely religious (not human or in a broader sense, sentient) value that is worth defending, even dying for. We can have charities, we can care for each other without any religious aspects whatsoever.
“Day of the Vipers” certainly doesn`t show religion in a positive light. At the beginning of the book it was mentioned that Dukat was told stories about the oppressive history of the Oralian way. I can`t say if that is true or propaganda or, what is probably most likely, a mix of both. From what I could see the Oralians in this book are genuinely trying to benefit others and although their belief is strong, they use words in order to find new followers, not violence. That is positive but on the other hand, it seems they lost contact with the real world. They lost the ability to also see the negative sides of what happens around them. They reminded me of sheep among a pack of wolves. They didn`t have a chance and if the Oralian Way will indeed be reborn one day, it also has to develop some teeth, an ability to defend itself but hopefully without losing the peaceful, strong ideals that made this religious organization such a positive movement, a movement that brought worlds together.
Although I have my problems with organized religions, I appreciate it that the Bajorans get a lot of strength from their beliefs and that it helped many to survive during the occupation. Nevertheless, the book showed the dangers of blind faith again. I know, the Kai was ill but the rest of the high ranking people around her were not. The vision sent by the Prophets made the Kai much too trusting and blind – and her followers were unable and unwilling to see what is going on. The Cardassians manipulated them with ease. I found it sickening but not surprising that the Vedeks attacked the Oralians in the end, blinded by hatred and fanaticism. I understand that they had better reasons than tasteless cartoons and the naming of a teddy bear but even at that time, if the Vedeks really wanted to, they would have realized that Bennek and his people had been framed. Instead they allowed themselves to be used by the Cardassian occupiers. I hope lessons will be learned.
The other character I immediately liked was Darrah Mace, the Bajoran law man. I am very glad that he survived at the end of the book and that the last pages of this novel had in spite of what happened a positive hopeful ending. When reading this book I had to wonder what would happen if the Cardassians or aliens like him would come to the real life Earth. I think we would be less trusting. I think the Cardassians were right when it was mentioned that the Bajorans because they were a relatively peaceful species for so long lacked the experience and mindset to be a match for the scheming Cardassians. On the other hand, the pattern of surrounding yourself with greedy, power hungry and spineless people is also familiar here when looking at various dictatorships.
I enjoyed the appearances of Nechayev and Jones. In this book we are not meeting Admiral Nechayev but Lieutenant Nechayev, a woman with much less influence than in later years. Nevertheless, if I hadn`t known better, I wouldn`t have noticed. This was the Nechayev I grew to like and respect. I really fail to understand that it is more important to destroy a listening post within Federation space which would move somewhere else if the Federation is helping the Bajorans before it is too late and instead allowed the Cardassians to gain a powerful military foothold at the doorstep of the Federation. I am sure, it would be much easier to locate a new listening post in Federation space and get rid of it than getting the Cardassians out of Bajoran space.
I haven`t read the rest of the trilogy yet but I have the suspicion that this was not really the main reason not to help. Fighting the Cardassians openly outside of Federation space would be seen as an act of war against Cardassia and the Federation was unwilling to start one for aliens who are not members. I haven`t forgotten that the Federation also didn`t do much later, it seems. Even giving humanitarian aid to Bajoran refugees was the exception, not the rule. If I remember correctly, when that was mentioned in TNG, the Prime Directive excuse was used.
Also so early in her career, Nechayev stood up for what she believed in but also knew what battles she can win. Her promise to Darrah made me wonder – what did she actually do to help? This little part of the book opens the door to so many interesting story ideas!
I think I will stay with Terok Nor a while longer and am looking forward to it to start the next book tomorrow.
I've been working on my own version of the Cardassian language--not the "Kardasi" I've seen floating around on the Internet, but my own version. It's been a really fun experience since I basically have a clean slate to work with, minus a few examples in the names.
Now, a question to Mr. Swallow.
You cast someone named "Craig Kelley" in the role of Bennek. I Googled and got a Christian singer--did you have someone else in mind, or is that really it? It would certainly be a fitting association with Bennek's beliefs, but there were a whole slew of Craig Kelleys out there so I wasn't sure.
I was AMAZED at this book, overall. Not only were the Bajorans really cool...the Oralians were at an even more compelling level for me. The twist with the opening scene was absolutely painful to read at the end. As a person of faith, it was heartbreaking on both a "story" and "personal" level.
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(Spoiler)
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And I was just absolutely horrified...horrified at the sheer awfulness of Dukat as he was portrayed: I literally felt sick when he opened fire on that Oralian colony ship. If all of the atrocities of the Bajoran Occupation weren't enough to convince people of his total villainy, that one ought to make it readily apparent.
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