The end of capitalism in the ST universe...?

[AlboOfBorg]

According to Capt. Picard in Star Trek: First Contact, "The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity." When and how did capitalism collapse and what replaced it? After all, it's human nature to be lazy... with new replicator technology and such and no reason to work to earn a living, why don't we have 6 billion humans spending every waking moment in a holodeck? Was there some type of "punishment" in the future for not working? I seriously doubt that in 300 years we become so advanced that we work for the betterment of society in lieu of personal financial gain...

 

[greenmystik]

According to Capt. Picard in Star Trek: First Contact, "The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity." When and how did capitalism collapse and what replaced it? After all, it's human nature to be lazy... with new replicator technology and such and no reason to work to earn a living, why don't we have 6 billion humans spending every waking moment in a holodeck? Was there some type of "punishment" in the future for not working? I seriously doubt that in 300 years we become so advanced that we work for the betterment of society in lieu of personal financial gain...

Maybe on earth, or the Federation for that matter, every citizen has whatever they want. Since money is no object it sounds like whatever advancements made by Starfleet or civilians is shared with the whole community.

 

[Lynx]

Fortunately things like capitalism and communism will be gone and looked upon as barbaric, narrow-minded systems from the Dark Ages.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

They never explained fully the transition to a moneyless economy but from all the sociology and economics I know it's the type of thing that would happen gradually over a long period all by itself, the useof money would just decline or drift away, as things like replicators were introduced.

They still did have "credits" though...what were they? some kind of currency definitly, maybe not money as we would understand it.

Also keep in mind, capitalism has only existed in the form we know today for a TINY sliver of human history and is actually something of an anomoly.

Contrary to (mostly American fed) myth, its not human nature to be lazy.

But however a moneyless economy operated it would rely on a certan amount of maturity and common sense restraint that humanity currently does not possess, were not yet that civilized, hence ST being 400 years into the future.

As to how it happened, they clearly could not go into detail on that, for many reasons, they had to keep it vauge, so as not to mar the show in too much current policits.
I think this is why they refrenced a WWIII so much.
Huge disasters or wars usually provide the cataylist for major social change.

Two examples:

1. The great depression and the New Deal in the USA (most of which survives today)
2. The beverage report and creation of things like universal healthcare and social welfare in Europe after WWII

Disasters produce more social solidarity and more focus on problems.

(for a more sinister example, look at how terrorism,basically was no biggie untill the 9-11 attacks...now all of a sudden it's gonna get us all)

Also dont' dismiss ST as just dirty commie propaganda, look at all the sly digs towards the soviet union that were connected with the borg, La Forges lecture to Hugh for example "WE! ...are all seperate individuals" and Picard mocking a world for fighting over diffrent economic models.

 

[Deks]

It is entirely possible that 'credits' as we know them are merely an individuals accumulation of personal resources during their service in SF, and are effectively used as a means of trade.
We only heard of the word in first episode of TNG by Crusher, but later on, we know for the most part that virtually everything in the Federation is based on trade, and sharing of resources/technology.

Accumulation of personal wealth is not a pursuit for majority of people.
Obviously there were individuals that wanted 'profit' for their own personal gain but they were not exactly a model example of humans in the 24th century.

Poverty, diseases and hopelessness were eliminated by the year 2113.
Probably because people mostly decided how old economy and principles simply don't work anymore and that it sprouted far more damage than the trade system approach.
You also have to understand that in the Trek universe, the government for the most part is actually looking after the interests of their people (which is hardly the case in present day and age).

Utilizing/sharing technologies and resources after their encounter with the Vulcans would be a deciding factor after all.
It's a sound principle after all.
People are actually looked after by the new government that wants to make things better for humanity.
Losing 600 million lives in WW3 was also one of the factors that came into play.
Also, while we have no direct evidence to the post atomic horror (which would have probably subsided by the time Zefram conducted his warp flight) it's safe to bet that whatever happened right after the war wasn't pretty and people wanted a change for the better.

 

[Xatso]

They still did have "credits" though...what were they? some kind of currency definitly, maybe not money as we would understand it.

Contrary to (mostly American fed) myth, its not human nature to be lazy.

But however a moneyless economy operated it would rely on a certan amount of maturity and common sense restraint that humanity currently does not possess, were not yet that civilized, hence ST being 400 years into the future.

Right on.

I think we still have a few battles ahead before we will eventually change over to a morally efficient and universally beneficial capitalistic system.

Human nature, such as the acquisition of belongings for self-gain (greed) is grounded very deep in our nature - it is one of the ways that we survived and evolved. Envisioning a system without monetary rewards of some kind in the future, is like envisioning a Ferengi giving up all his gold-pressed-latinum to an orphanage.

We may have to face the fact that we might not have such a rosy future as colored in Star-Trek, and that we may never overcome some of the obstacles that is currently holding us back.

 

[AlanC9]

Human nature, such as the acquisition of belongings for self-gain (greed) is grounded very deep in our nature - it is one of the ways that we survived and evolved. Envisioning a system without monetary rewards of some kind in the future, is like envisioning a Ferengi giving up all his gold-pressed-latinum to an orphanage.

Not necessarily. How the desire for self-gain will express itself is very much dependent on the culture. For instance, it was common for European peasants to want to maximize leisure, rather than possessions. This set up a very unfortunate dynamic; if you paid them more, they'd work less, so the incentive for their overlords was to keep them at the edge of starvation.

Conversely, in a replicator-based culture, it seems kind of silly to focus the drive for self-gain on possessions. It would still be doable if there are IP constraints on what you're allowed to replicate. But you could also have a society that runs around pure status rewards, and skips the physical possession middleman altogether. In that world, you create new IP for the status it brings you, so your incentive is to give it away to everybody to maximize the number of people using it.

Which leaves the question of how Federation society judges such things. Which Sisko has the higher-status job? Which Picard?

The big hole here is real estate, since you can't replicate that. Unless cities are seen as undesirable places to live in the Trek future, Harry Kim's apartment must stand as the single most unrealistic thing in Trek.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Actually the Ferengi were supposed to be modern day humans, obsessed with profit and money, then they had some fun with them by having Quark tease Sisko with "were a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget"...."but humans used to be alot worse than Ferengi...slavery...concentration camps...we have nothing in our history that approches that kind of barbarism"

 

[alicelouise]

The replicator could take care of the needs for food and clothing. There were resources in ST that were not replicable; that being latinum, dilithium and real estate.

It seems many posters on this board do not understand capitalism and private property. If you read "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith; you will find very little ideology or philosophy. There are only the facts of supply and demand, not theories such as Marx, Engels, Keynes, and Malthus.

Star Trek is enjoyable to watch. BTW the Borg Collective with digs to the USS Was. 'bout time! Most of the time, TNG characters were self righteous and too high on Maslow's Pyramid for their own good. So, the Borg were a welcome kick in their self satisfied behinds.

Getting back to the thread, the replicator would seem to be a boon to private property.However, there will be the 24th century swells who will want the equivalent of unreplicable Louis Vuitton luggage and Mahnolo Blahniks.

 

[Sharr Khan]

We may have to face the fact that we might not have such a rosy future as colored in Star-Trek, and that we may never overcome some of the obstacles that is currently holding us back.

The thing of it is, you were right in saying that "Greed" is ingrained in our nature, but its not such a divisible trait that we can ever do without and continue on as a species as that very same force in it contains our urge to go further and do better.

To take that away from us would make us less then human.
Its kinda like splitting Kirk into Good-Kirk & Bad-Kirk... he needs both those halves to be functional.

Sharr

 

[PhoenixIreland]

And we will always need slavery because the economy will collapse without it

I love far flung predictions

 

[Carpe Occasio]

From Memory Alpha:

Money in the 21st century sense is not used on 24th century Earth. The exact nature of the Federation economy is difficult to describe; while money has not entirely ceased to exist, it does not play the central role in the lives of Federation and Earth citizens that it once did. It appears that the Federation economy is built on a model that is decidedly non-capitalist, but rather akin to a socialist or communist model, however precise information is very scarce. The descriptions given by various Federation citizens are as follows:

Kirk told Spock about 20th century Earth: "They're still using money. We need to get some." Later on, while Kirk was having dinner with Gillian Taylor and was unable to pay in the restaurant, Gillian asked sarcastically, "Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century," and Kirk told her "Well, we don't." (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)

Picard tries to explain to Ralph Offenhouse from the 20th century that there would be no need for his law firm any longer: "A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions." (TNG: "The Neutral Zone")

When Lily Sloane asked how much the USS Enterprise-E cost to build, Picard tells her "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century... The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity." (Star Trek: First Contact)

When Nog suggests that Jake should bid for a baseball card in an auction, Jake says "I'm Human, I don't have any money." Nog replies "It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement." Jake says "Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." Nog then replies "What does that mean?" Jake responds "It means we don't need money!" (DS9: "In the Cards")

Jake: (big smile) "I sold my first book today." Quark: "Really? How much did you get for it?" Jake: "It's just a figure of speech. The Federation News Service is going to publish a book of my stories about life on the station under Dominion rule. But they're not paying me." (DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited")

Tom Paris says about the significance of Fort Knox: "When the New World Economy took shape in the late 22nd century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum." (VOY: "Dark Frontier")

However, money was not totally abandoned by all Federation citizens and some individuals, such as Carter Winston, acquired vast personal fortunes during this same period. (TAS: "The Survivor") Money also continued to be used on many other alien worlds, and for certain limited purposes in the Federation itself, especially when dealing with non-Federation members.

Rishon Uxbridge referred to her husband Kevin Uxbridge as a "starving student" when she first met him. (TNG: "The Survivors")

The term "starving" may be a social euphemism. It is certainly relative, as Trek generally has established that the in the Federation, poverty, hunger, etc. have been eradicated among member planets. The implication is that while everyone in the Federation enjoys, at a minimum, a comfortably adequate standard of living, there are some whose standard is higher than others.

Quark sold his damaged shuttle Quark's Treasure for scrap, in the Sol system, and was given enough to pay for passage back to Deep Space 9. (DS9: "Little Green Men")

The Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX, a Federation member planet, apparently has a market economy. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")

When he first entered Starfleet Academy, Benjamin Sisko beamed back to his home in New Orleans so often that he later claimed to have used up a month's worth of "transporter credits." (DS9: "Explorers")

In 2373, Quark indirectly caused damage to a cargo bay. Quark was informed that he would have to bear the cost burden for the repairs. (DS9: "Business as Usual")

During the 2020s, the United States used credit chips as a form of currency. (DS9: "Past Tense, Part I")

 

[Sharr Khan]

And we will always need slavery because the economy will collapse without it

I love far flung predictions

Human nature hasn't changed in the least ever - now social morals are fluid and have in truth "evolved"but what makes us us has remained a constant from the moment we have walked upright. What I say is based on the inevitable failures of Utopianism as humans have attempted it - not once has it proven functional so I can't imagine why GR's ill defined reach is any more double no matter the time span.

Everything you see depicted within the current Trekverse is pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

Sharr

 

[HortaVorta]

The big hole here is real estate, since you can't replicate that.

At least not until the L5 O'Neill cylinders and Banksian orbitals get up and running.

 

[Triskelion]

Another aspect of greed is self-centeredness, as well as psychological statistical pessimism when it comes to how we view other people. In short, people usually expect the worst in others, and it manifests in all manner of behaviors and instances.

Which means that people have always been on guard against other people, and continue to exploit others for personal gain as a matter of course even now.

A feat which the Trek Earth somehow overcame, as humans began pulling together.

Of course, there can always be an argument made that all people pulling together in peaceful harmony is sinister fascism masquerading as peace-the peace of the oppressed. So even a bunch of nice people living together could be interpreted as an "evil to be routed." Probably for personal gain.


The worst kind of human beings are the evil ones who couch their actions in peace. "I enslave you because I love you." Plenty of those still around.

The Trek Earth somehow overcame educational deficiencies as well as psychological developmental challenges, and made human development consistently more salubrious and effective. Personally I would like to live in a TNG world, but I can see how the intellectual serenity could be interpreted as dull as mayonnaise. People still act out on our impulses, our dramas, and especially primitive motivations. Perhaps one creative challenge could be creating proper social channels for these impulses.

Give people replicators now, today, and you'd have people replicating cash money and drugs, weapons, and replicator-jamming technology to shut down their neighbors. And somehow we'd figure out how to get porn from it. (Oops, did I say 'we')?

I see 1984 thinking every day. It's chilling how much easier it is to be the center of the universe, because Big Bro says we are. To never examine our self-serving rationalizations, but take them as "the way it is". Yet I see a good deal more injustice, self-serving corruption, & anomie from such a system.

I guess I'm just saying, we have a lot of psychosocial challenges ahead before we could hope to create an altruistic, abundant society. And even then we have to have our "fully loaded phaser bank" diplomacy.

 

[EmoVulcan]

With a replicator that can be used whenever the heck you want I think most people would be covered for their basic wants.

The real thing that gets to me is the fact that these people basically work for free (maybe with certain bonuses that only that specific job has access to). This might not be a problem if you're a Starfleet guy exploring the universe but somebody has to clean the toilets.
Why doesn't that guy just quit and retire to a small and probably available house on some planet somewhere with his trusty replicator?

The most unrealistic thing isn't the abolishment of capitalism but is the sudden HUGE drive of the human race.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

And we will always need slavery because the economy will collapse without it

I love far flung predictions

Human nature hasn't changed in the least ever - now social morals are fluid and have in truth "evolved"but what makes us us has remained a constant from the moment we have walked upright. What I say is based on the inevitable failures of Utopianism as humans have attempted it - not once has it proven functional so I can't imagine why GR's ill defined reach is any more double no matter the time span.

Everything you see depicted within the current Trekverse is pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

Sharr

As I've said before, utopianism is RELATIVE, Europe today would ba a Utopia to those 400 years ago.
What has failed are active attempts to create a utopia, which, given the ill defined nature of the goal in such attempts, was always doomed.
In the ST universe WWIII and first contact seemed to provide a catalist for humanity to attack problems that had long dogged the human race such as poverty.
This would make 24th century earth a utopia by OUR standerds, but they still have problems ...eg the maquis situation, security issues, disease.
They have simply eliminated many of the problems WE have today such as poverty.

Similar things that were "destined to last forever" like slavery, monarchy, smallpox, polio etc have been eliminated today.

As for greed being in human nature, there is no biological basis for greed, it is a result of the society we are socialzed into.
Perhaps some posters here should look up the term ethnocentrism, there are many cultures whos entire basis is cooperation not compitition, just because many critical aspects of the dominant western culture currently rely on greed and professional gambling (or as we call it investing) does not mean this is the way it has to me forever.

Feudalism was also once seen as a natural order of things, human nature, know your place etc

There are however many aspects of human nature that require the socialization and civilization aspects to contrain or remove, such as agression, greed is not one of them

 

[scifijunkyuk]

Fortunately things like capitalism and communism will be gone and looked upon as barbaric, narrow-minded systems from the Dark Ages.

i got the impression thats pretty much wat he meant. goin into too much detail wud hav been bad 4 the film (and ST in general). it wud make it TOO political for some. i luv the political bits personnaly but a lot of people find it boring

 

[FordSVT]

And we will always need slavery because the economy will collapse without it

I love far flung predictions

Human nature hasn't changed in the least ever - now social morals are fluid and have in truth "evolved"but what makes us us has remained a constant from the moment we have walked upright. What I say is based on the inevitable failures of Utopianism as humans have attempted it - not once has it proven functional so I can't imagine why GR's ill defined reach is any more double no matter the time span.

Everything you see depicted within the current Trekverse is pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

Sharr

Of course it's "pie in the sky" thinking, it's a fictional sci-fi show. No one is arguing that the Federation is a model for today's economy, we're just trying to figure out how it might work.

You don't think that unlimited real-estate, unlimited energy, the elimination of poverty and most disease and the invention of matter replicators would have a significant impact on how most humans behave and what their goals in life are?

Or do you think a peasant living 1500 years ago in the Andes wants and needs and has the same desires as a person living in Manhattan today?

I've been reading a lot of science fiction lately that speculates about a future dominated by unlimited solar and fusion energy, AIs and nano-technology. In such a system, when more people live inside of virtual worlds than without, the pursuit of physical wealth often becomes secondary. Notoriety, popularity, startus, and recognition for one's achievements become more important. I think in a way this is the type of universe Star Trek occupies. You could just sit in your tiny apartment and waste your life watching holo-vids, but why would you when there's every opportunity for personal growth and respect from the community? And since there is surely still some need for people to experience material growth and reward, people do seem to get things like a nicer house or apartment, more access to free transportation, credits if one wishes to travel outside of the Federation, etc. It's not that hard to believe people could thrive in a society like that, with people raised from birth knowing they'll never want for physical things, and that they can do or be whomever you want to be.

Probably impossible, but like I said this is just fiction.

 

[BigC]

Some form of money/compensation has to exist. Where does the fresh food in the resturants come from? if you want to move from Paris to Montana how is the property allocated or is there a waiting list?

Hiow did "old" jake get the large fine home he lived in. Remember McCoy saying in The Undiscovered Country "I'd give real money it he'd shut up". Picards protests not withstanding. Some body is getting paid something.