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Roddenberry was a dirtbag

Hating your avatar, lovin' your post :)




I'd love to hang out with THAT Gene far more than with Utopia-Gene(tm), seriously, sounds like a fun guy :bolian:

And this is why I weep for society's moral values.

You weep for morals using Roddenberry as a comparison when we have the ultimate moral breaker sitting in the White House?

Um, well, I respectfully disagree with your characterization of our President (I'm assuming you're in the USA but correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I don't see what one person's conduct has to do with the other's, unless you're speaking about the moral crime of adultery. In that case you'd need to bring in former President Clinton, no?
 
And this is why I weep for society's moral values.

You weep for morals using Roddenberry as a comparison when we have the ultimate moral breaker sitting in the White House?

Um, well, I respectfully disagree with your characterization of our President (I'm assuming you're in the USA but correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I don't see what one person's conduct has to do with the other's, unless you're speaking about the moral crime of adultery. In that case you'd need to bring in former President Clinton, no?

Yup, you can lump Clinton in the mix for his little escapade, too. However, nobody takes the cake as Mister Bush who had the temerity to start a war he couldn't finish and then has the audacity to assume that giving up his golf game was a personal sacrifice.

So you see, people can construe others for their wrong doings, but you apparently like the President and see him from a different angle. You look beyond his mistakes.

The same is applied to GR. He had his faults but he made a contribution...something that Mister Bush hasn't given.
 
You weep for morals using Roddenberry as a comparison when we have the ultimate moral breaker sitting in the White House?

Um, well, I respectfully disagree with your characterization of our President (I'm assuming you're in the USA but correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I don't see what one person's conduct has to do with the other's, unless you're speaking about the moral crime of adultery. In that case you'd need to bring in former President Clinton, no?

Yup, you can lump Clinton in the mix for his little escapade, too. However, nobody takes the cake as Mister Bush who had the temerity to start a war he couldn't finish and then has the audacity to assume that giving up his golf game was a personal sacrifice.

So you see, people can construe others for their wrong doings, but you apparently like the President and see him from a different angle. You look beyond his mistakes.

The same is applied to GR. He had his faults but he made a contribution...something that Mister Bush hasn't given.

That's your opinion and I respect it. I differ and in fact would vote for President Bush again if given the opportunity. Also, I never attempted to take away from GR's accomplishments. In fact, I am very grateful for them.

Have a good one.
 
Buffalo? Carrier Pidgeon? Salt Vampire? Bush apologist? All dead or dying out....

Ahh, I'm not one of those. I support him through and through and don't think there's anything to apologize for.

And actually I think the Buffalo are making a major comeback.

:)
 
He does not sound different than many producers of his time. Many posters make a good points of artistic geniuses of the past with horrible personalities. Richard Wagner and Ludwig von Beethoven were rotten to the people around them and bought into looney tune beliefs, but, were musical geniuses. GR isn't in their league, characterwise or genius. Of course, the reason all those Hollywood producers behaved/behave in such an appalling manner is because they can.:rommie:
 
I believe this thread is being derailed from the original purpose thereof. International politics have very little to do with Roddenberry.

I want to quote from the movie "First Contact" where Zephram Cochrane says - scoffingly - that he isn't some "great visionary" - to which Riker replies, "I don't think you're great, but you did have a vision." A few moments later he quotes Cochrane's comments; "Don't try to be a great man; just be a man, and history will make it's own impression."

The fact is, Gene Roddenberry had a vision. He, like all of us, had the demons of human instinct to combat - like us, he had a darker side - all of us have a part of our life that we don't talk about, that we suppress, that we try to forget; the animalistic desire to eat, mate and gain power. The people who hate evil the most in public are usually also hiding the most evil in private. It might suffice to say - whoever is without sin among us, let him cast the first stone.

Star Trek doesn't project a glorious image of what we are; it depicts a glorious image of what we can be. As a human race we have a whole lot of evolving yet to do; but thanks to people like Roddenberry, that evolution might not have to take quite so long.
 
I don't like politics being brought into this thread.

But when President Bush is attacked I defend him.

President Bush has been a good president by any reasonable standard. Better than Clinton. Better than his father. Not better than Reagan Better than Carter. Better than Ford. Better than Nixon. Better than Johnson. Better than Kennedy. Not better than Eisenhower. Not better than Truman. Not better than Roosevelt. Better than Hoover. Better than Coolidge. Better than Harding. Better than Wilson. Better than Taft. Not better than Teddy Roosevelt. Equal to McKinley. Better than Cleveland. Better than Harrison. Equal to first term Cleveland. Better than Arthur. Better than Garfield Better than Hayes. Better than Grant. Better than Johnson. Nowhere nearly as good as Lincoln. Better than Buchanan. Better than Pierce (who Bush's mother is related to). Better than Fillmore. Better than Taylor. Equal to Polk.

I hope that gives you an idea of my historical opinions.
 
I believe this thread is being derailed from the original purpose thereof. International politics have very little to do with Roddenberry.

I want to quote from the movie "First Contact" where Zephram Cochrane says - scoffingly - that he isn't some "great visionary" - to which Riker replies, "I don't think you're great, but you did have a vision." A few moments later he quotes Cochrane's comments; "Don't try to be a great man; just be a man, and history will make it's own impression."

The fact is, Gene Roddenberry had a vision. He, like all of us, had the demons of human instinct to combat - like us, he had a darker side - all of us have a part of our life that we don't talk about, that we suppress, that we try to forget; the animalistic desire to eat, mate and gain power. The people who hate evil the most in public are usually also hiding the most evil in private. It might suffice to say - whoever is without sin among us, let him cast the first stone.

Star Trek doesn't project a glorious image of what we are; it depicts a glorious image of what we can be. As a human race we have a whole lot of evolving yet to do; but thanks to people like Roddenberry, that evolution might not have to take quite so long.

I agree with this. Human beings act like humans. Why make things more complicated. I don't know where anybody got the idea that nobody involved in Trek had private lives. I'm not sure how many people believed the "better humanity" bit, or didn't. I don't know who came up with what and when.

I get the impression that the set of Trek was The Office on heroin. Somewhere between the leading man losing stardom to a guy wearing foam ears, the casting couch, the drinking and the cheap sets, it was just a bunch of people trying to make decent TV without killing each other. (I smell my own ticket to fame if i could pull off something like that on youtube)

As for the sex bit -- why is this our business? I didn't marry the guy, so what difference does it make to me who he was snogging? That's a private matter between the man and his wife. If they were happy with the arrangement, well then good for them.
 
I've read a lot about Roddenberry and I've come to these conclusions:

1) Roddenberry was a sex obsessed jerk in some ways. The opposite sex was a big weakness of his most of his life. It wasn't helped by the fact that his first wife cheated on him while he was in the military.

In this regard, except for his coarseness in dealing with women at times, GR wasn't any better or worse than a number of people.

I would tend to think Mr. Roddenberry is no better or worse than most people, regardless of their gender, nationality, or beliefs.


2) The people in GRs life in his later years were classic enablers. Majel Barrett loved him so much that she basically allowed him to satisfy every range of his appetites without consequence.

I do not claim to know the total inside story of the life of Mr. Roddenberry. At times, things I've read about him (even while he was alive) seemed to put forth an image of an ego as big as the Sun.

Having said that, I would like to remind everyone here that Mr. Roddenberry was a military veteran. That doesn't absolve him from any of his failings, but his sacrifice in the Pacific does put him a cut above many of us. In that respect, he was possibly the quintessential example of a successful member of the Greatest Generation.

Richard Arnold basically made a career out of puffing up GRs ego and telling him how great he was compared to everyone else working on the Trek franchise.

I have heard more bad things about this man than I care to acknowledge. I encountered a couple of people over the years who met Mr. Arnold (I have never been to any of the conventions, nor have I ever met him.) One person from Canada (apparently either Canada was Arnold's homeland or he spent part of his life there) shared a letter from Arnold with me in the early 1990's, in which Arnold denounced DEEP SPACE NINE (he called it "Deep Throat Sixty-Nine"), making it clear in no uncertain terms that Roddenberry either never knew of or never approved of the series.

The impression I got from Arnold's public statements on canon items and the second-hand stuff from my contacts who met him was that he was an obnoxious charlatan, someone who only enjoyed his position in the spotlight because of his personal association with Roddenberry. He talked like he was Mr. Big, but he really had no relevant accomplishments to his name. This does reflect on Mr. Roddenbery, who enabled him.



3) Roddenberry was truly desperate after the end of the original series to have some success, ANY success outside of Star Trek. When this didn't happen, he clung to Trek like a drowning man clinging to the only lifeboat left afloat.

People can make this inference if they want, but anyone who knows anything about the entertainment industry should be aware that Hollywood is no meritocracy. This not only means that success is not necessarily related to merit, but also that failure is not necessarily related to a lack of merit, either. For example: Aaron Spelling had many very popular TV shows to his credit. (THE MOD SQUAD, THE ROOKIES, THE LOVE BOAT, CHARLIE'S ANGELS, HART TO HART, DYNASTY, BEVERLY HILLS 90210, 7TH HEAVEN, CHARMED, etc.) This may have made Spelling worth alot more than Roddenberry in a material sense, but it does not make Roddenberry any less memorable. Look at it this way: it seems clear that TOS will be remembered well over 50 years after it made its debut on NBC. How many of Spelling's shows do you think will be similarly appreciated on their respective Golden anniversaries?

The truth is, everyone in the film and TV industries is desperate, some more than others.

4) What irritates alot of people (including me) is hearing about "Gene's vision".

Gene's "vision" was to make money, eat, drink and get laid (not necessarily in that order).

All the stuff about "an optimistic future" is fluff that fans have glommed on to the Trek franchise to make them feel like the time they waste with it has some high noble purpose.

Now, this I don't see as entirely fair.

It is true that fans (encouraged by Paramount's propaganda, no doubt) have put Mr. Roddenberry on a pedestal. Mr. Roddenberry has been given waaay too much credit for having a vision of humankind's future.

That having been said, Mr. Roddenberry was the creator of the original STAR TREK. He deserves credit for envisioning a dramatic franchise in which humans from across the Earth will bravely explore the Galaxy in super-high-tech starships and work with other species. I'd say "The Cage" alone was quite a step up from FORBIDDEN PLANET.

So yes, this notion of trying to inflate the man as if he were on the same level as Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. or that he was "the Great Bird of the Galaxy" is ridiculous. But for all his self-seeking misadventures, Roddenberry came up with a fresh idea for a groundbreaking TV show that should never have made it on the air, particularly in that era. That's a remarkable accomplishment.
 
...I'd say "The Cage" alone was quite a step up from FORBIDDEN PLANET...
I beg to differ. The Cage is barely a step sideways from Forbidden Planet. The concept it puts forward is no more innovative. It's almost as antiquated in its vision of women in the future as FB.

Heck, The Cage borrows so much from FB that I sometimes suspects Gene saw the film and decided to make something like it for weekly TV.
 
I believe this thread is being derailed from the original purpose thereof. International politics have very little to do with Roddenberry.

I want to quote from the movie "First Contact" where Zephram Cochrane says - scoffingly - that he isn't some "great visionary" - to which Riker replies, "I don't think you're great, but you did have a vision." A few moments later he quotes Cochrane's comments; "Don't try to be a great man; just be a man, and history will make it's own impression."

The fact is, Gene Roddenberry had a vision. He, like all of us, had the demons of human instinct to combat - like us, he had a darker side - all of us have a part of our life that we don't talk about, that we suppress, that we try to forget; the animalistic desire to eat, mate and gain power. The people who hate evil the most in public are usually also hiding the most evil in private. It might suffice to say - whoever is without sin among us, let him cast the first stone.

Star Trek doesn't project a glorious image of what we are; it depicts a glorious image of what we can be. As a human race we have a whole lot of evolving yet to do; but thanks to people like Roddenberry, that evolution might not have to take quite so long.

Well put. It was a show about our potentials, not about our accomplishments now.

If we start with the assumption that a person is "bad", then I'm sure there is not one among us who could avoid that judgment. We can pick and choose behaviors that support that assumption. Have you ever refused to give to a beggar? Have you ever had dessert while people are starving in the world? Have you ever broken up with someone, or cheated on them, or told a lie? Have you ever been part of a majority or minority culture? Ever have a problem repaying a debt quickly?

I talk to people every day who would level that judgment on someone just for being from a certain country, or even race. Certainly I know there are behaviors I have done which have been misinterpreted, motives mis-attributed, by people who don't know the first thing about my motives, let alone personal relationships. Judgments sometimes say more about the accuser than the accused. Also? Judgments based on second and third-hand information have little solid ground. They are incidental interpretations of interpretations.

Not to mention the simple fact that salacity and sensationalism sell books. Not to mention the psychological predisposition of correspondence bias (fundamental attribution error) people engage in, judging behaviors as character-centered and not necessarily environmentally-centered.

Let me give an example:
My British friend crosses the street in the bright, crowded zebra lines.
A car doesn't bother to stop, and hits him, despite the fact that my friend had the green and the right of way.

The driver jumps out of the car and accuses him of being a foreigner. In fact, nationality had nothing whatsoever to do with the accident, but it is the first thing some people will seize upon. Add to this the natural association of guilt for being foreign, and you have something a lot worse.

This is simply, erroneous reasoning, pure, unadulterated falsehood. But if people aren't interested in examining the limits of their own reasoning, what's the point of discussing anything at all?

Finally, since someone asked my opinion, I'll share it. I'm afraid I think this thread is in poor taste.
 
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I don't like politics being brought into this thread.

But when President Bush is attacked I defend him.

President Bush has been a good president by any reasonable standard. Better than Clinton. Better than his father. Not better than Reagan Better than Carter. Better than Ford. Better than Nixon. Better than Johnson. Better than Kennedy. Not better than Eisenhower. Not better than Truman. Not better than Roosevelt. Better than Hoover. Better than Coolidge. Better than Harding. Better than Wilson. Better than Taft. Not better than Teddy Roosevelt. Equal to McKinley. Better than Cleveland. Better than Harrison. Equal to first term Cleveland. Better than Arthur. Better than Garfield Better than Hayes. Better than Grant. Better than Johnson. Nowhere nearly as good as Lincoln. Better than Buchanan. Better than Pierce (who Bush's mother is related to). Better than Fillmore. Better than Taylor. Equal to Polk.

I hope that gives you an idea of my historical opinions.

Name dropping a bunch of presidents doesn't make you an authority. It just makes you look like someone trying to build credibility when you have none.

I am also laughing hardcore at the idea that W is better than Clinton as the most recent example. Somehow an unendable joke of a war, horrible gas prices, a failing economy and laughable approval ratings makes a great president. Mission accomplished indeed! I love how we brought that Bin Laden guy to justice! Bush has accomplished nothing and no matter how much you want to name drop presidents you can't create accomplishments that don't exist. You know why? Because the things Bush has failed at are larger, and frankly, more hilarious.

As for Gene...I love the idea of TMP. The problem was the movie was not the story but the horrible pace of the movie and the style of it. The Cage is also one of the greatest episodes in all of Star Trek. And I love TNG S1 so, to me, Roddenberry was great at giving me exciting entertainment. His personal life is none of my business.
 
I don't like politics being brought into this thread.

But when President Bush is attacked I defend him.

President Bush has been a good president by any reasonable standard. Better than Clinton. Better than his father. Not better than Reagan Better than Carter. Better than Ford. Better than Nixon. Better than Johnson. Better than Kennedy. Not better than Eisenhower. Not better than Truman. Not better than Roosevelt. Better than Hoover. Better than Coolidge. Better than Harding. Better than Wilson. Better than Taft. Not better than Teddy Roosevelt. Equal to McKinley. Better than Cleveland. Better than Harrison. Equal to first term Cleveland. Better than Arthur. Better than Garfield Better than Hayes. Better than Grant. Better than Johnson. Nowhere nearly as good as Lincoln. Better than Buchanan. Better than Pierce (who Bush's mother is related to). Better than Fillmore. Better than Taylor. Equal to Polk.

I hope that gives you an idea of my historical opinions.

Name dropping a bunch of presidents doesn't make you an authority. It just makes you look like someone trying to build credibility when you have none.

I am also laughing hardcore at the idea that W is better than Clinton as the most recent example. Somehow an unendable joke of a war, horrible gas prices, a failing economy and laughable approval ratings makes a great president. Mission accomplished indeed! I love how we brought that Bin Laden guy to justice! Bush has accomplished nothing and no matter how much you want to name drop presidents you can't create accomplishments that don't exist. You know why? Because the things Bush has failed at are larger, and frankly, more hilarious.

As for Gene...I love the idea of TMP. The problem was the movie was not the story but the horrible pace of the movie and the style of it. The Cage is also one of the greatest episodes in all of Star Trek. And I love TNG S1 so, to me, Roddenberry was great at giving me exciting entertainment. His personal life is none of my business.

I believe he gave his opinion as exactly that. An opinion.

Clinton and Roddenberry each had lying and cheating in common. Perhaps Bill ought to consider tv production as a new career? Plenty of young talent out there for him to cast.
 
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