My own take on Janeway in Before Dishonor (spoilers)

[Defcon]

No, I would have said the same if it had been a male Janeway. In my opinion she was one of the captains who more or less wanted to do all on their own and most of the time just let her crew ratify her decisions, without really giving them the chance to convince her otherwise. Yes, she had alibi discussions, but in the end you seldom had the feeling that her officers changed anything about her opinion. Granted all Captains did that to a certain degree and in the end it's their job to make the decisions, but she was the worst in my opinion. Maybe she appeared that way because she didn't had a strong enough first officer.

All the other captains had luxuries that Janeway and the Voyager crew didn't. The other captains could afford to spend more time ferreting out viewpoints. Janeway couldn't, considering the fact that they were 75,000 light years from home and couldn't afford to waste any time. And Sisko didn't let his crew change his mind, and neither did Archer, really, or Kirk. Picard was always more of a diplomat/mediator.

I'm not sure about that less time point. In the end often the decisions she had to make were similar to those the other captains had to make. While I agree that most of the captains stand by their opinion after a staff meeting, she was the only one I had the feeling didn't even really listen to her officers most of the time.

(BTW You have to love the fact that every time a male says something negative about Janeway he automatically becomes a sexist. )

Janeway is sort of like Hillary Clinton-she's damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't. If she hadn't been as strong as she was perceived, then people would have been criticizing her for being a "weak woman". Because she's strong and confident (perhaps a *bit* too much) then she's accused of being brash and overconfident and not a "woman".

That's all fine and I would accept kimc accusation if I really had said something about her not being a woman, but all I said was that I think she was overconfident, the same thing I would have said if Captain Janeway's first name had been Kevin for example.

 

[kimc]

I'm not sure about that less time point. In the end often the decisions she had to make were similar to those the other captains had to make. While I agree that most of the captains stand by their opinion after a staff meeting, she was the only one I had the feeling didn't even really listen to her officers most of the time.

Based on what?

That's all fine and I would accept kimc accusation if I really had said something about her not being a woman, but all I said was that I think she was overconfident, the same thing I would have said if Captain Janeway's first name had been Kevin for example.

Again, based on what?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I'm not sure about that less time point. In the end often the decisions she had to make were similar to those the other captains had to make. While I agree that most of the captains stand by their opinion after a staff meeting, she was the only one I had the feeling didn't even really listen to her officers most of the time.

The mitigating circumstance for me is the fact that there's really no margin for error, and no margin for any waffling. All the other captains, if something went wrong, could just go back to Starbase. Voyager on the other hand was all by itself. And I think she did listen to her officers, mostly when it dealt with their area of expertise. However, part of being captain is making final decisions.

That's all fine and I would accept kimc accusation if I really had said something about her not being a woman, but all I said was that I think she was overconfident, the same thing I would have said if Captain Janeway's first name had been Kevin for example.

*shrug*

 

[Defcon]

I'm not sure about that less time point. In the end often the decisions she had to make were similar to those the other captains had to make. While I agree that most of the captains stand by their opinion after a staff meeting, she was the only one I had the feeling didn't even really listen to her officers most of the time.

Based on what?

That's all fine and I would accept kimc accusation if I really had said something about her not being a woman, but all I said was that I think she was overconfident, the same thing I would have said if Captain Janeway's first name had been Kevin for example.

Again, based on what?

Based on me watching the series (Granted, I only watched most episodes once or twice and propably missed finer points people who watched the show more regiously than I didn't). Maybe most people don't agree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that that's the personal impression I had while watching the show.

(And I still wait for a prove that my opinions stated in this thread are sexist like you implied)

 

[kimc]

I'm not sure about that less time point. In the end often the decisions she had to make were similar to those the other captains had to make. While I agree that most of the captains stand by their opinion after a staff meeting, she was the only one I had the feeling didn't even really listen to her officers most of the time.

Based on what?

That's all fine and I would accept kimc accusation if I really had said something about her not being a woman, but all I said was that I think she was overconfident, the same thing I would have said if Captain Janeway's first name had been Kevin for example.

Again, based on what?

Based on me watching the series (Granted, I only watched most episodes once or twice and propably missed finer points people who watched the show more regiously than I didn't). Maybe most people don't agree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that that's the personal impression I had while watching the show.

(And I still wait for a prove that my opinions stated in this thread are sexist like you implied)

I can only go by what you post and you are calling Janeway overconfident and saying she doesn't listen to her staff without giving any concrete examples or specific situations. Also, if you could take a specific situation and describe how you think Kirk or Picard would have handled it differently then we may get somewhere.

 

[Christopher]

The mitigating circumstance for me is the fact that there's really no margin for error, and no margin for any waffling. All the other captains, if something went wrong, could just go back to Starbase. Voyager on the other hand was all by itself.

That's not really true. Kirk was often weeks out of comm range with Starfleet Command, and it was an accepted part of the show's premise that, like the 18th-century British naval captains on which he was based, Kirk was often the only authority in the area, single-handedly responsible for making decisions which could affect his entire nation (like whether to breach the Neutral Zone and risk war with the Romulans). That practice wasn't always followed (depending on whether it served the story better for him to be on his own or clashing with higher authorities), but plenty of episodes did presume the Enterprise was entirely on its own, with no Starfleet supervision.

Indeed, one of the reasons for setting Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, as explicitly stated by the producers, was to try to recapture that frontier flavor of TOS, to go back to having a ship and captain without the recourse of calling on Starfleet for instructions or backup.

And I think she did listen to her officers, mostly when it dealt with their area of expertise. However, part of being captain is making final decisions.

I think people are basing the idea that she doesn't listen on one or two specific examples, such as "Equinox." As with the stereotypes about Kirk, Picard, and other characters, it comes from focusing on a few standout examples and disregarding the broader pattern of behavior that doesn't match those extreme cases.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^ Your point about TOS and Kirk is valid. However, Kirk would be able to go back to Starbase on a regular basis, wouldn't he? Voyager was like TOS, only more so.

 

[Defcon]

Based on what?




Again, based on what?

Based on me watching the series (Granted, I only watched most episodes once or twice and probably missed finer points people who watched the show more religiously than I didn't). Maybe most people don't agree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that that's the personal impression I had while watching the show.

(And I still wait for a prove that my opinions stated in this thread are sexist like you implied)

I can only go by what you post and you are calling Janeway overconfident and saying she doesn't listen to her staff without giving any concrete examples or specific situations. Also, if you could take a specific situation and describe how you think Kirk or Picard would have handled it differently then we may get somewhere.

That still doesn't show where I'm sexist, especially since I stated more than once that my feelings would be the same if the character would have been male. As for the other point:

I think people are basing the idea that she doesn't listen on one or two specific examples, such as "Equinox." As with the stereotypes about Kirk, Picard, and other characters, it comes from focusing on a few standout examples and disregarding the broader pattern of behavior that doesn't match those extreme cases.

Since I haven't watched the show that religiously, that's certainly a possibility. Maybe I have gotten the impression in some extreme and therefore more noteworthy cases (for the casual viewer) like Equinox or Caretaker (where she singlehandedly decides to strand two crews in the Delta-Quadrant), and then superimposed them over other decisions she has made.

 

[BlazerBoy]

At the end of Before Dishonor, I always assumed that Lady Q was leading Janeway away on some grand adventure that would ultimately lead to her becoming part of the continuum, not necessarily to the afterlife.

 

[kimc]

I think people are basing the idea that she doesn't listen on one or two specific examples, such as "Equinox." As with the stereotypes about Kirk, Picard, and other characters, it comes from focusing on a few standout examples and disregarding the broader pattern of behavior that doesn't match those extreme cases.

Very well put. I've always thought of "Equinox" as Janeway's "Obsession". In the TOS episode Kirk was obsessed with a cloud monster that had killed many of the crew from a previous posting. He ignored all advice in his quest to kill the creature - like a man obsessed.

Similarly, Janeway was obsessed with bringing Ransom to justice. Ransom was a Starfleet officer who had not only committed genocide but had left her and her crew at the mercy of the alien race. She was rightly pissed.

Both Kirk and Janeway eventually came to their senses and threw off their obsessions but both episodes are good illustrations of how even the best of the best can sometimes lose it when they let personal feeling cloud their decision-making.

The funny thing is while Janeway is often called on her "Equinox" behavior similar behavior by Kirk or the other captains is rarely questioned...

(And I still wait for a prove that my opinions stated in this thread are sexist like you implied)

Like I said I can just go by the impression you've given. If it's that important to you then prove me wrong with something concrete.

 

[Defcon]

(And I still wait for a prove that my opinions stated in this thread are sexist like you implied)

Like I said I can just go by the impression you've given.

There is nothing I said in this thread that even has the slightest hint of being sexist.

If it's that important to you then prove me wrong with something concrete.

What's more concrete than you reading this thread and finding nothing sexist by me in here?

Listen, I have no problem with you disagreeing with my impression of the Janeway character, but what I've a problem with is when someone labels me sexist without any reason and then tries to turn the "innocent" until proven "guilty" rule around, when there's nothing to back it up.

 

[LightningStorm]

If it's that important to you then prove me wrong with something concrete.

What's more concrete than you reading this thread and finding nothing sexist by me in here?

Listen, I have no problem with you disagreeing with my impression of the Janeway character, but what I've a problem with is when someone labels me sexist without any reason and then tries to turn the "innocent" until proven "guilty" rule around, when there's nothing to back it up.

For the record not a single post by kimc has had the word sexist in it. Similarly the original post you quoted as having the implication of sexism was merely a question as to if her being female was the basis. Instead of simply answering the question you jumped right to the "So, I'm a sexist?!!" comment.

This like many things is a matter of perspective, I don't see the question from that original post as implying any sort of sexism on your part at all.

 

[kimc]

If it's that important to you then prove me wrong with something concrete.

What's more concrete than you reading this thread and finding nothing sexist by me in here?

Listen, I have no problem with you disagreeing with my impression of the Janeway character, but what I've a problem with is when someone labels me sexist without any reason and then tries to turn the "innocent" until proven "guilty" rule around, when there's nothing to back it up.

For the record not a single post by kimc has had the word sexist in it. Similarly the original post you quoted as having the implication of sexism was merely a question as to if her being female was the basis. Instead of simply answering the question you jumped right to the "So, I'm a sexist?!!" comment.

This like many things is a matter of perspective, I don't see the question from that original post as implying any sort of sexism on your part at all.

Exactly. I'm simply wondering if your criteria for being overconfident is different for Janeway than for the other captains. What are your criteria for being overconfident? Which situations pop into your mind when you say that? These are the concrete things I wanted to know.

Whether we all choose to admit it or not we often do expect different behavior from men vs women. How do those expectations play out when a woman is in a position traditionally held by men and the other way around?

You may think that Janeway is MORE confident than Kirk or Picard or you may think her amount of confidence is more than what a woman should have. Actually, that would not be an uncommon perception and if it's one you hold that doesn't mean you're one of those "sexist pigs" who pats women's behinds or whatever - it simply means you look at men and women differently.

 

[Defcon]

For the record not a single post by kimc has had the word sexist in it. Similarly the original post you quoted as having the implication of sexism was merely a question as to if her being female was the basis. Instead of simply answering the question you jumped right to the "So, I'm a sexist?!!" comment.

I just will quote my very first sentence after her post:

No, I would have said the same if it had been a male Janeway.

So I've answered the question right away.

And with her prove me you're not sexist demands she basically has confirmed that that implication was the intention behind the "question".

 

[Dancing Doctor]

You both have fallen into defensive stances.

 

[LightningStorm]

For the record not a single post by kimc has had the word sexist in it. Similarly the original post you quoted as having the implication of sexism was merely a question as to if her being female was the basis. Instead of simply answering the question you jumped right to the "So, I'm a sexist?!!" comment.

I just will quote my very first sentence after her post:

No, I would have said the same if it had been a male Janeway.

So I've answered the question right away.

And with her prove me you're not sexist demands she basically has confirmed that that implication was the intention behind the "question".

Fine I misspoke. I should have said "in addition to" instead of "instead of". That's fine, but the fact that they all happened in one post before anybody got a chance to even respond at all still calls out some sort of defensiveness right off the bat.

Nobody said you were a sexist. However you are figuratively jumping up and down screaming "I'M NOT SEXIST!! I'M NOT SEXIST!!!!!" This sort of passing the burden of proof off on someone else by making claims in the negative does not mean that someone else who never made a claim to begin with now has to "prove that you are a sexist."

So, keeping this on the topic of Before Dishonor. How did you feel about Picard's unilateral decisions that invoked the mutiny in that book? Based on your statements here I gather that you agreed with the mutiny? (even if not the specific execution of it).

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^ I hated the mutiny (just injecting my opinion)

 

[Stevil2001]

To be fair, Picard never listens to the warnings of the Q, either (the whole book prior to Before Dishonor was predicated on that notion), but it always turns out just fine for him.

Yeah, but I see a difference between Lady Q and Q, since in contrast to him she hasn't that long a track record of messing around with humanity.

But would Picard have listened to Lady Q? Probably not. But it's never ended badly for him because, well, just because that's the way the stories have been constructed. Whereas Peter David constructed this one so that it did turn out badly for Janeway.

If Calhoun had been in the same role, you know he wouldn't've listened to Lady Q. But Calhoun can't make mistakes, so everything would have turned out just fine. So it's a bit hard to say that Janeway's "overconfident", when really, she doesn't seem any more confident than our other captain characters.

 

[Christopher]

But would Picard have listened to Lady Q? Probably not. But it's never ended badly for him because, well, just because that's the way the stories have been constructed. Whereas Peter David constructed this one so that it did turn out badly for Janeway.

Actually, Picard's failure to listen to Q did turn out badly in "Q Who?", to the tune of eighteen killed or assimilated crewmembers. His overconfidence left him unprepared for the threat the Borg posed, which was the very point of Q's lesson. Also, Picard's resistance to Q's worldview turned out fairly badly for him in "Tapestry," and it wasn't until he admitted that Q had a point that he was able to restore his life. And in "All Good Things...", he also had to get over his kneejerk resistance to Q and recognize and accept the help Q was offering him. Same with Q&A. Really, it's a recurring thread that Q, for all his annoying behavior, often has a valid point that Picard is slow to appreciate.

 

[Stevil2001]

True, I suppose I overstated it a bit. But Picard never learned his lesson by dying!