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Musing on the 12-ship fleet

The only issue I have with that is that space is a lot bigger than, say, the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. It's hard for me to accept the "space is small" feel that is necessarily conveyed by applying that sort of similarity rationale.

Space is big... really really big. I mean really, you just can't overstate how big it is. You may think it's a long way down to the corner drug store, but that's just peanuts to space. (apologies to Douglas Adams)

Honestly, that's sort of equivalent to assigning a dozen police cars to patrol all of North America. No matter how fast the car may be, it simply can't be everyplace at once.

I don't think that really excludes a small fleet, though. Agreed, space is big. It's so big that only a fraction of the explored bit would be of interest to the Federation at all, and only a fraction of that would have strategic significance or diplomatic sensitivity. The "twelve like her" may be sufficient for their specific job, which may be mostly policing or mostly exploring. Some of their number may be grouped together in a rapid-response "flying squadron" for hot spots (perhaps as seen in "The Ultimate Computer") or this might be left to a different, unseen class altogether. The dreadnoughts (or another class) could be grouped in defensive fleets at strategic points. The routine local patrol and policing could be left to unseen destroyer/frigate/corvette/sloop/scout/whatever ships.

The impression I get from TOS is that Starfleet is relatively small. Kirk already knows a lot of the Starfleet personnel he comes across, for one. Enterprise seems to be either the most prestigious or the only "showy" ship available for important diplomatic duties, transporting an ambassador or showing the flag at an inauguration ceremony. There may be more major units than the "twelve," but I don't think there are a lot more.

--Justin
 
The impression I get from TOS is that Starfleet is relatively small. Kirk already knows a lot of the Starfleet personnel he comes across, for one. Enterprise seems to be either the most prestigious or the only "showy" ship available for important diplomatic duties, transporting an ambassador or showing the flag at an inauguration ceremony. There may be more major units than the "twelve," but I don't think there are a lot more.

--Justin

I agree with this. Another impression I got from TOS was that Starfleet hadn't been around for but a few decades at that point. Galactic exploration was still something fairly new and exciting.
 
In contrast, I'd think space exploration was old news and somewhat ho-hum at that point already, as the heroes never quite seem to run out of preexisting regulations for walking through the exotic scenarios they encounter.

And while Kirk knows a couple of the Commodores he meets (specifically, Wesley and just possibly Stone and Mendez), it's more often a case of him knowing the Commodores than those Commodores knowing him. Even a run-of-the-mill Captain among hundreds would be aware of the few legendary flag officers the Fleet has to offer, especially if they are his immediate superiors and commanders of the starbase he frequents. And once forced to dealing with the lowly Captain, said flag officers wouldn't necessarily hesitate to start calling him "Jim".

In contrast, there isn't much reason to think that Kirk knew Tracey or Wazzisname of the Defiant in advance. Although he'd have gone through their files when tasked with finding out what happened to their ships, of course. Decker he might have known, as our heroes basically stumble onto his ship's distress rather than concluding a long search, and Kirk still readily exclaims "That's Matt Decker's ship!". But the way he does that suggests Decker could be one of the legendaries.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I dunno...the fact that he felt comfortable addressing a commodore as "Matt" on more than one occasion in that episode tells me that the two knew each other quite well. And the distinct impression was given that Kirk and Ron Tracy also knew each other fairly well, as did Spock.
 
Another impression I got from TOS was that Starfleet hadn't been around for but a few decades at that point. Galactic exploration was still something fairly new and exciting.

Could well be, though the way Stiles speaks in "Balance of Terror" Starfleet seems to be at least a successor organization to the "Space Service" of a century before. I'd certainly agree that the type of distant exploration they were doing in TOS seemed to be more recent development.

Even a run-of-the-mill Captain among hundreds would be aware of the few legendary flag officers the Fleet has to offer, especially if they are his immediate superiors and commanders of the starbase he frequents. And once forced to dealing with the lowly Captain, said flag officers wouldn't necessarily hesitate to start calling him "Jim".

But not the reverse. Kirk calling superior officers Mendez, Decker and Wesley by their given names almost immediately is a strong indication of familiarity. Likewise with Tracey, though he's of equal rank, and Kirk seems to know him by sight before speaking to him.

A few other "familiarity connections," of the top of my head:

"Space Commander" Dominguez ("The Man Trap")
Miss Piper in Mendez's office (friend of a friend, "The Menagerie")
Lt. Shaw and several officers at Starbase 11 ("Court Martial," Kirk remarks that his Academy class is "well represented")
Ensign Garrovick (Kirk served with his father, "Obsession")

--Justin
 
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The impression I get from TOS is that Starfleet is relatively small. Kirk already knows a lot of the Starfleet personnel he comes across, for one. Enterprise seems to be either the most prestigious or the only "showy" ship available for important diplomatic duties, transporting an ambassador or showing the flag at an inauguration ceremony. There may be more major units than the "twelve," but I don't think there are a lot more.

--Justin

I agree with this. Another impression I got from TOS was that Starfleet hadn't been around for but a few decades at that point. Galactic exploration was still something fairly new and exciting.

Another point is that this early in Federation history, Starfleet may not yet have taken over full responsibility for patrol and defense. The bulk of routine patrol duty might still rest with pre-existing fleets of member planets. Going back to the crime analogy, the "Feds" only get called in for situations the locals can't handle independently, or for tasks that are squarely Federation responsibilities, so a small Starfleet might suffice at that stage. Later on as the Fleet grows it begins to assume responsibility for more and more of these tasks.

I'll probably forget something, but aside from exploration, we usually saw the TOS Enterprise defending/supporting colonies, fending off major border adversaries, and showing the flag for the Federation proper. Things that would fall outside the responsibility of an individual member planet. I rarely recall the Enterprise visiting or coming to the aid of a member planet. No call for help from Andor to fend off an attack by Orion pirates for example. It always seemed to be colonies, base facilities, or non-member planets that the Federation had a "national" interest in.

So with local fleets still handling day-to-day patrol & basic defense, you might only need one large Starfleet ship in any given sector to handle those occasional extraordinary situations such as giant amoebas, doomsday machines, imperfection sterilizing space probes, and other emergencies affecting the Federation as a whole.

Mark
 
Kirk calling superior officers Mendez, Decker and Wesley by their given names almost immediately is a strong indication of familiarity.
Well, Mendez would be familiar to Kirk even if the Fleet had 632 Commodores, as Mendez seems to be closely associated with starbase 11 which Kirk frequents. (That is, even if Stone is the actual commander, Mendez signs his verbal correspondence with "SB 11" as in the closing scene of "Menagerie II". He might command the fleet which Kirk is part of.)

And the very fact that Kirk runs into the two starshipboard Commodores during the course of his adventures might be taken to indicate that Starfleet has so many big starships that it can afford to semi-permanently squeeze three of them close to each other! The friendships would then be the result of the closeness.

A few other "familiarity connections," of the top of my head:

"Space Commander" Dominguez ("The Man Trap")
Miss Piper in Mendez's office (friend of a friend, "The Menagerie")
Lt. Shaw and several officers at Starbase 11 ("Court Martial," Kirk remarks that his Academy class is "well represented")
Ensign Garrovick (Kirk served with his father, "Obsession")
True enough. Yet none of these features a "random element". Kirk doesn't meet Dominguez in "Man Trap" all of a sudden, he only speaks of another scheduled meeting with somebody he has often met before. Starbase 11 people don't stumble on Kirk or vice versa, Kirk merely frequents that base. The young Garrovick is aboard apparently exactly because Kirk knew the father.

Surely Kirk is allowed the usual circle of, say, a hundred Starfleet people he knows by circumstance, quite regardless of whether the Fleet is 1,000 or 1,000,000 officers strong. Now, if Kirk ran into Miss Piper while visiting Argelius with Scotty and McCoy, that would suggest a small fleet operating in a small sandbox. Not so when the two meet at the latter's place of employment.

So with local fleets still handling day-to-day patrol & basic defense, you might only need one large Starfleet ship in any given sector to handle those occasional extraordinary situations such as giant amoebas, doomsday machines, imperfection sterilizing space probes, and other emergencies affecting the Federation as a whole.

Perhaps so. But the hero ship is also often tasked with stuff such as flying crucial medication from A to B, B being a major established colony or member world in distress ("Galileo Seven", "Let That Be", "Cloud Minders" etc). Such assignments would intolerably tie down "silver bullet" resources, unless we argue Starfleet has enough silver bullets to operate a regular machine gun belt.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, Mendez would be familiar to Kirk even if the Fleet had 632 Commodores, as Mendez seems to be closely associated with starbase 11 which Kirk frequents. (That is, even if Stone is the actual commander, Mendez signs his verbal correspondence with "SB 11" as in the closing scene of "Menagerie II". He might command the fleet which Kirk is part of.)

And the very fact that Kirk runs into the two starshipboard Commodores during the course of his adventures might be taken to indicate that Starfleet has so many big starships that it can afford to semi-permanently squeeze three of them close to each other! The friendships would then be the result of the closeness.

Maybe, but that's not really indicated by what's shown onscreen. Contact between starships seems very infrequent, and certainly not of duration to establish close personal ties. From what we see in the series, personal familiarity between starship captains/commodores would more likely imply a prior acquaintance.

True enough. Yet none of these features a "random element". Kirk doesn't meet Dominguez in "Man Trap" all of a sudden, he only speaks of another scheduled meeting with somebody he has often met before. Starbase 11 people don't stumble on Kirk or vice versa, Kirk merely frequents that base. The young Garrovick is aboard apparently exactly because Kirk knew the father.

Surely Kirk is allowed the usual circle of, say, a hundred Starfleet people he knows by circumstance, quite regardless of whether the Fleet is 1,000 or 1,000,000 officers strong. Now, if Kirk ran into Miss Piper while visiting Argelius with Scotty and McCoy, that would suggest a small fleet operating in a small sandbox. Not so when the two meet at the latter's place of employment.

Those are very good points, but I think it's a little more random than that. The majority of the evidence from the series is that Enterprise does not frequent a particular starbase, but comes in contact with many different ones. Two episodes involve SB11, presumably because the second incident occurred while E. was still in the same region.

Lt. Shaw did not know Kirk from contact on SB11, she had not seen him in years. And the assignment of other officers to SB11 would most likely be pretty much random, making representation of a particular graduating class more indicative of a small fleet. To take it a step further, the fact that Kirk knows these members of his class personally implies a small academy class size, and that in turn a smaller fleet.

As for Mr. Garrovick, Kirk apparently doesn't even know he is aboard until the ensign reports for a security detail.

As with many things, one's preconceived idea can probably shade how the evidence is viewed. My picture of the TOS Starfleet is a large organization, but small enough to still be somewhat tight-knit and a little over-stretched..

--Justin
 
Kirk's comment is not indicative of a small fleet full stop - there might of only been twelve ships like his, but it is more than likely that represented only 1% or so of the fleet. If Starfleet was that small then they would be too spread out to respond effectively in case of invasion or attack - as we in fact see them do in "Errand Of Mercy".

Once you get to TNG they are spread out in a much larger Federation but there are clearly massive numbers of ships in service during DS9, and in TNG it takes them a week to assemble 40 ships in a quiet spot of space in BoBW and there are 23 ships in one sector in "Redemption"....
 
Kirk's comment is not indicative of a small fleet full stop - there might of only been twelve ships like his, but it is more than likely that represented only 1% or so of the fleet.

Like the modern USN - there are only 12 ships like the Nimitz, but the whole navy consists of, what, 600 ships?
 
Like the modern USN - there are only 12 ships like the Nimitz, but the whole navy consists of, what, 600 ships?

Oh my, no. Less than 300, including USNS ships. The 600 ship navy was a Reagan campaign promise, IIRC they never made 600 but came very close, into the 590s, around 1986 or '87.

--Justin
 
Oh my, no. Less than 300, including USNS ships. The 600 ship navy was a Reagan campaign promise, IIRC they never made 600 but came very close, into the 590s, around 1986 or '87.

--Justin

Well, keep in mind that that's capital ships, from destroyers and up. The US Navy has a whole schlew of patrol boats, smaller ships, research vessels, and the like, which don't appear on the capital vessel registrar.

That's pretty much how I see the TOS Star Fleet operating as well.
 
Hi all.

I quickly scanned through this thread because I don't understand most of it.

A little speculation please...

What do we think the federation's complete ship line-up is by the time, say, just prior to the wolf-359 incident.

Can we estimate the number of ships, their ages, different sizes, crew sizes, weaponry, intended mission types, etc. I mean working manned ones, not those in cosmic graveyards or museums.

Also, I'll be honest that I don't know what a frigate or a dreadnought is.

Jadzia
 
Oh my, no. Less than 300, including USNS ships. The 600 ship navy was a Reagan campaign promise, IIRC they never made 600 but came very close, into the 590s, around 1986 or '87.

--Justin

Well, keep in mind that that's capital ships, from destroyers and up. The US Navy has a whole schlew of patrol boats, smaller ships, research vessels, and the like, which don't appear on the capital vessel registrar.

No, that's destroyers, carriers, cruisers and frigates, subs, minesweepers, oilers, amphibious ships of all kinds, cargo ships, ammo ships, surveillance ships, tenders, oceangoing tugs and so on. Basically everything that operates in the open ocean in a naval combat or supporting role. It is true that it does not include service craft and training vessels that never leave harbor, such as yard tugs, lighters, crane ships &c, some of which are not self-propelled. There are probably a few hundred more of these, but they are never counted as fleet forces, and weren't included in Reagan's 600-ship goal, either. But you're right, if you count everything that floats there are probably 700-plus.

Also, I'll be honest that I don't know what a frigate or a dreadnought is.

Broadly speaking, a frigate today is a smaller than a destroyer and usually associated with anti-submarine and escort duty. In the days of sail, it was more like what was called a cruiser in the 20th century. "Dreadnought" is basically another name for the armored battleships of the WW1/WW2 period. In Star Trek, it is generally applied to a type of vessel larger than the familiar Constitution class cruisers, usually with a third nacelle, originating in the work of Franz Joseph in the 1970s.

--Justin
 
So in trek, frigate<destroyer<cruiser<dreadnought?

Is it just about size and engine power then, relative to peer ships? There's no distinct division or distinguishing features.
 
We have never really seen a hero starship that would be designated other than cruiser, explorer or escort. Cruiser and explorer seem to be just the medium and extra large versions of the same vessel type, performing the same sort of a multifaceted mission. Escort is a small ship hobbled in terms of scientific survey abilities, and possibly in other, unknown respects as well.

We hear mention of many other starship types, but we are not privy to their capabilities or mission profiles. We witness survey ships in TOS and TNG action, finding out they are virtually defenseless, slow and unmaneuverable scientific observation platforms - but in VOY, a survey ship is an agile little combatant instead.

It might be a safe bet to say that Starfleet ship designations indeed mainly describe the size of the vessel, and "capital" ships of all designations and sizes have roughly the same balance of equipment and perform the same type of mission.

However, we certainly lack knowledge about which is bigger, frigate or destroyer. A Briton from WWII would say "Destroyer!". A Yankee from the 1970s would say "Frigate!". An European from the late 20th century would say "Is there a difference?" Anybody from the late 19th to early 20th century would go "Huh? What is a frigate?", and anybody from before the early 20th century would go "Huh? What is a destroyer?". There is absolutely no telling what a Starfleeter from the 23rd or 24th century would say, as we have never quite seen a ship explicitly identified as a Starfleet frigate or destroyer...

Timo Saloniemi
 
So in trek, frigate<destroyer<cruiser<dreadnought?

Is it just about size and engine power then, relative to peer ships? There's no distinct division or distinguishing features.
This is not so much a matter of just size/power, as it is of overall configuration.

Generally speaking, a cruiser is a powerful multifunctional vessel. It's not the most powerful in combat, nor does it have the best "scouting/recon" capability, nor does it have the greatest cargo capacity, nor is it the fastest. It is the "jack of all trades" ship, and though it's not the BEST at any one function, it's better than anything other than a dedicated-role vessel in fulfilling any given function. It's what you'd send to do a job if you weren't QUITE sure what you were going to be encountering (combat? exploration? running away really fast?)

A frigate is a step down from a cruiser, but is sort of the same thing... really a multi-role vessel. Frigates are usually the real "workhorses" of the fleet, doing all the "routine" work that it's not worthwhile to send the far more expensive Cruisers to do. It's fast (potentially faster than a cruiser, but if so, not by much), well-armed, has good recon capability, has reasonable cargo space, etc... but is much cheaper than a cruiser and as such is far more numerous.

In Trek terms, the Reliant would be a frigate while the Enterprise would be a cruiser.

Pretty much everything else are "master of one" type designs. Dreadnoughts are essentially a subcategory of battleships... big, very well-armed, extremely expensive, and not particularly well-suited for non-combat, peacetime jobs. (A dreadnought, in real (historical or modern) navy terms, is simply a battleship with a particular quirk of weapon... all the main guns being the same size.)

In Trek terms, a dreadnought would be considered either a big "show of the flag" or, more likely, a "saber-rattling" display, during peacetime. I like the idea that these are normally assigned to stationary duty at Starbases, providing the core of the local security force and also doing limited localized "peacetime" jobs, but during wartime they'd become mobile command posts - the center of each major battle element.

Destroyers aren't necessarily smaller, slower, weaker, or less well-armed than cruisers or frigates. In fact, some may be smaller than frigates and some may be larger than cruisers. But they are basically dedicated weapons platforms without any other role. A destroyer's job is to shoot, and to survive while doing so. In peacetime, you'd probably have destroyers doing border patrols (not being the primary patrol element, though... rather, being the "reinforcement" that the smaller patrol vessels would call for help!) or patrolling spacelanes. They COULD do peacetime roles, but wouldn't be very good at it (with very limited built-in capability for such roles).

Scouts are generally going to be heavy on sensor and "stand-off" science capabilities. Their job isn't to fight (though they should have the ability to defend themselves to some extent!). Ideally, they'd never come into enemy contact at all, and if they did, they'd be fast, light, and stealthy enough to evade their attacker. The rule would be "run away if engaged." During peacetime, they would also likely be given patrol duty in fairly secure, interior regions, and well as basic mapping/exploration duties.

Then you get into even MORE specialized designs. Dedicated science vessels (which are sitting ducks without an escort), like the Grissom. Big cargo-haulers. Service vessels (essentially the spaceborne equivalent of AAA - if you break down and need service in space, this ship can fix you up and get you home!). Shuttlecarriers, passenger carriers, mining vessels... all of which would be dependent on other ships (or in the case of the carrier, possibly its own embarked vessels?) for their security and support needs, but not really intended to ever operate in "unsafe" areas without an escort.

That's how I see it. It's not about SIZE, it's about DESIGN INTENT.
 
While I'm of the school that calls the Reliant a frigate because of it's smaller size, its armament kinda begs to differ, imho. In classic age of sail definitions, a frigate is smaller and more lightly armed than a ship of the line (28 to 44 guns, compared to 98 to 100+ for a first-rate, IIRC). Yet the Reliant has that big-ass dedicated torpedo pod with twice as many tubes as a Conny, and those big-ass quad "mega-phaser" turrets.

Overall, I suppose, Connies have more standard phaser emplacements than the Reliant, which only has 6, but, marronne, that roll bar ups the stakes!
 
In classic age of sail definitions, a frigate is smaller and more lightly armed than a ship of the line (28 to 44 guns, compared to 98 to 100+ for a first-rate, IIRC).

But then again, in classic age of sail definitions, a frigate is the very same thing as cruiser. Indeed, many a frigate got redesignated cruiser in the late 19th century, right before the age of fully steam-powered fleets.

One might argue that both Terrell's and Kirk's ships were frigates in the sailing sense of the word, while all the real capital ships were moored somewhere else as a deterrent against the Klingons.

Overall, I suppose, Connies have more standard phaser emplacements than the Reliant, which only has 6, but, marronne, that roll bar ups the stakes!

To be sure, there's nothing particularly "mega" about the roll bar phasers of the Reliant, either in terms of firepower or physical size (we don't know how large or small the hull-internal phasers of a starship really are, after all).

And both ship types have the same number of saucer emitters (6 times 2), while the Enterprise has four plus two single emitters on her secondary hull against the four single emitters on the roll bar of the Reliant. So one might argue that the Reliant indeed is slightly less heavily armed in terms of phasers, even when she carries twice the number of torpedo tubes.

Then again, some photos seem to show two single emitters flanking the underside of the Reliant impulse engine, bringing the numbers to perfect balance.

Of course, there might be subtle differences in the "caliber" of the various phasers, even when the roll bar guns of the Reliant are shown to dish out the same level of destruction as the saucer guns of the Enterprise. It's by no means canonically established that every phaser on a single starship would be of the same "type" or "mark" or whatever; Picard's ship, too, may have carried a mixture of weapon types, with only the heaviest ones dubbed Type 10. One might then ordinate the Starfleet vessels by the "caliber" of their main guns if one wished.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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