Pedantic Jerk

[Phaser Two]

I've always just assumed that Spock was uncomfortable in command situations and tended to overcompensate by taking refuge in his Vulcan training and becoming "Supervulcan". Even in TWOK he indicates that as a teacher (like his Mother) on a training mission he's comfortable in command, but an actual mission is quite another thing altogether.

Yeah, but that was Spock speaking after becoming, as he viewed it, a teacher, and further indicating that in an "actual duty" situation, the senior officer on board must assume command. Plus, he was making an argument designed to ease Kirk's potential conflicted feelings about taking command. Several years later, he has absolutely no problem taking command, and quite skillfully, in TUC.

In some episodes of TOS, Spock is a talented commander who makes reasoned decisions and earns the respect of his subordinates. "Who Mourns for Adonais" is perhaps the best example of this, but there are several others ("The Mark of Gideon" comes to mind). But in other episodes, he's closed off ("The Paradise Syndrome") or downright strange (as in "That Which Survives").

So it's quite inconsistent. The producers did a far better job consistently portraying Scotty as an apt starship commander than they did Spock.

 

[johnnybear]

Spock was changing all the time during the course of the series. His smiles and wit vanishing along the way despite Amanda's comments in JTB in season two.
JB

 

[TIN_MAN]

Yeah, but that was Spock speaking after becoming, as he viewed it, a teacher, and further indicating that in an "actual duty" situation, the senior officer on board must assume command. Plus, he was making an argument designed to ease Kirk's potential conflicted feelings about taking command. Several years later, he has absolutely no problem taking command, and quite skillfully, in TUC.

Yeah, but TUC is after Spock came back from the land of the dead, which has a way of changing one's attitude about a lot of things.

In some episodes of TOS, Spock is a talented commander who makes reasoned decisions and earns the respect of his subordinates. "Who Mourns for Adonais" is perhaps the best example of this, but there are several others ("The Mark of Gideon" comes to mind). But in other episodes, he's closed off ("The Paradise Syndrome") or downright strange (as in "That Which Survives").

I think it has to do more with the severity of the situation and how Spock calculates the odds as to whether he can save his captain and friend, or whether he'll be permanently stuck with a command he doesn't want, if he can't. Also, the order in which the episodes aired may not be the same as the in-universe chronological order, therefore we may simply be seeing the growth of Spock's confidence in his ability to command.

So it's quite inconsistent. The producers did a far better job consistently portraying Scotty as an apt starship commander than they did Spock.

Oh, it's inconsistent to be sure, like a lot of things in TOS, hence the topic under discussion.

 

[InLoveWithJimKirk]

Yeah, but TUC is after Spock came back from the land of the dead, which has a way of changing one's attitude about a lot of things.

I think it has to do more with the severity of the situation and how Spock calculates the odds as to whether he can save his captain and friend, or whether he'll be permanently stuck with a command he doesn't want, if he can't. Also, the order in which the episodes aired may not be the same as the in-universe chronological order, therefore we may simply be seeing the growth of Spock's confidence in his ability to command.

Oh, it's inconsistent to be sure, like a lot of things in TOS, hence the topic under discussion.

Interesting discussion. I suppose I’ve explained Spock’s varying behavior in the above named episodes as indicative of his inner struggle with his own emotions/humanity, and in the absence of Kirk as a buffer/filter/guide, Spock vacillates depending upon the severity of circumstance and particularly the risk to Kirk’s life. Under Pike’s tenure, Spock had fewer opportunities to command — whether an away team or as acting captain— so it’s new to him, and his newfound rapport with his human comrades complicates his logic. (I’m not considering the implications of Spock’s relationships with crew mates on SNW at this point, since it’s pre-canon to me.) That makes Spock more interesting to watch. Kirk, on the other hand, as noted earlier, is actually a less complex character. He is The Hero, the Leader, and certainly more experienced with the vagaries and challenges of leading his people.

 

[Qonundrum]

In the recent thread on salt vampires and the transporter, I mentioned the episode "That Which Survives." I hadn't seen that one in a long while and decided to review it.

It's a fun one, with novelties and a good idea, even if let down by monetary constraints and one other nitpick that I think I know what you're going to address:

And then I remembered one of the reasons I hadn't viewed the episode in a long while. In every interaction with Spock, he was acting like a pedantic jerk. "Nine hundred and ninety point seven light years to be exact, Lieutenant," or "I would calculate fourteen point eight seven minutes, Mister Scott." This was like some unfunny comedian's parody of Mr. Spock that totally missed the mark. He was out of character, like Kirk in "Requiem for Methuselah."

The occasional character tweak is one thing, but "That Which Survives" has Spock being a completely superficial take on the character that's very difficult to accept, especially for no in-story explanation.

For Kirk, yeah "Requiem" had to play fast and loose to make the big idea work. It just about does, but one has to roll with it. Often at warp 14 to get across 990.7 light years as fast as possible..

I hope McCoy was able to surgically remove that bug from his butt before it killed him.

He did. Then it grew to full size and went around telling people his name was "Sheldon Cooper".

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That .0009 discrepancy is what was going to blow up the ship!

Precision matters, people!

 

[Mudd]

Yeah. But I've never really been able to come up with a good behind-the-scenes rationale for it. Maybe it was Shatner exercising greater creative control over his character than Nimoy did. But that is an unsatisfactory explanation, because some of the crazy swings in Spock's characterization (though not all) occur within S3, when Nimoy (and everyone else) already knew darn well that Spock was the "breakout character." One thing that jumps to mind - Spock is wildly different in "The Mark of Gideon" and "The Paradise Syndrome" than he is in "That Which Survives" - and he was in command of the ship for substantially all three of those episodes.

Because Kirk's not written to be an interesting character. He's The TV Hero. So writers gravitate to being inventive with Spock.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Because Kirk's not written to be an interesting character. He's The TV Hero. So writers gravitate to being inventive with Spock.

Kirk's relative consistency is in part Shatner making Kirk an idealized version of his himself as the series went on. He didn't have to stray far. What makes Kirk interesting and fun for me to watch comes from Shatner. I don't know if I'd even be as much of a fan of the original series if another actor was cast. Depends on the casting, etc.

This is no slight on Kirk - this goes for all of them.

Spock, by definition as an alien, was more interesting to explore. If a writer has a choice of getting into the skin of a unique alien character a regular human, it's a no-brainer.

 

[Vger23]

I always thought Spock was written for a little wry comic relief in this episode, and I've always really appreciated it. The back-and-forth between him and Scott is gold.

This was when the character could be "funny" while still remaining true to his essence instead of the caricature that he was turned into for the Abrams films and SNW.

 

[willa6276m]

Kirk and Spock are both models of toxic leadership in this episode. Kirk is snarky with his staff for no reason. It doesn't sit right.

At least the casting gave us some familiar faces. Lee Meriwether was on The Time Tunnel, and she played Catwoman the Second in Batman. Arthur Batanides was a Genre TV frequent flyer: The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Lost in Space, The Time Tunnel, Land of the Giants, The Green Hornet, Man from Atlantis, Wonder Woman, Galactica 1980...

I thought he did Batman, but I don't see it listed.

One of the reasons the later part of the third season is terrible is that too many episodes have Kirk and/or Spock behaving atypically. The worst offenders are Requium for Methuselah (where Kirk doesn't behave like Kirk) and That Which Survives (in which Spock doesn't act like Spock).

Whoever wrote these episodes didn't understand these characters at all. In this case they wrote Spock to be insufferably sarcastic, condescending and disrespectful. Someone unfit for leadership. Kirk was also too salty and snippy on the planet, but not as obnoxious as Spock.

Star Trek became beloved because of Kirk/Shatner and Spock/Nimoy. They were admirable, uplifting characters and brilliant actors with awesome chemistry. In the two episodes mentioned the writers failed in showing their great qualities. If the main characters were written this badly in all three seasons the show would never have been the iconic show it became.

 

[Pauln6]

Spock clearly fancies Rhada so he's overcompensating. Didn't Kirk do the same to Rand in Corbomite Manoeuvre?

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Spock clearly fancies Rhada so he's overcompensating.

No wonder he told her to be more precise!

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Spock clearly fancies Rhada so he's overcompensating. Didn't Kirk do the same to Rand in Corbomite Manoeuvre?

I think it would have been awesome if Spock had Lt. Rhada at the helm again in "The Paradise Syndrome", and Naomi Pollack had still played Miramanee's bestie ashore. I don't think I would ever have noticed the dual role if it wasn't spelled out in the end credits.

It's the same with Phyllis Douglas: Yeoman Mears seems nothing like Hippie Girl #2. And then you could see her on Batman and still not realize it's the same person.

Does anybody know if "The Paradise Syndrome" had a second unit, so shipboard and planet side scenes could be shot simultaneously? That would kill my dual role idea for Naomi.

 

[Denise]

Nimoy complained about how Spock was written in the last few episodes. At one point he asked "Is Spock now supposed to be an idiot?"

In I Am Spock Nioy talks about how he had to push for a reason for Spock to suddenly fall in love with Zarabeth and attack McCoy. The writers then came up with McCoy's explanation that without the support of the Vulcans from his day, Spock was reverting to a Vulcan of Zarabeth's time.

And Spock also doesn't seem to realize that he will die without being changed by the Atavachron, which makes him try to send McCoy back while he remains with Zarabeth.

 

[Ssosmcin]

And Spock also doesn't seem to realize that he will die without being changed by the Atavachron, which makes him try to send McCoy back while he remains with Zarabeth.

This is excusable since they've all been back in time without needing to be prepared before. The Atavachron apparently works differently than the Guardian or the slingshot effect.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

And Spock also doesn't seem to realize that he will die without being changed by the Atavachron, which makes him try to send McCoy back while he remains with Zarabeth.

I find it chilling that Mr. Atoz tried to wheel Kirk through the portal with no preparation, and we know Kirk had none because he didn't die by staying in the present.

Or maybe Atoz was only sending Kirk back in time... Seven Days. And he focused the portal a thousand miles away, because f--- this guy. Kirk doesn't want to escape the nova, so let him be vaporized.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I find it chilling that Mr. Atoz tried to wheel Kirk through the portal with no preparation, and we know Kirk had none because he didn't die by staying in the present.

Sure he did. He wasn't sending Kirk to die.

ZARABETH: None of us can go back. When we come through the portal, we are changed by the atavachron. That is its function. Our basic cell structure is adjusted to the time we enter. You can't go back. If you go through the portal again, you will die by the time you reach the other side.

Kirk didn't go through after Atoz prepared him. As long as Kirk didn't make that trip, he was fine. The atavachron didn't adjust his cell structure).

JUDGE: We can never go back. We must live out our lives here in the past. The atavachron has prepared our cell structure and our brain patterns to make life natural here. To return to the future would mean instant death.
KIRK: Prepared? I was not prepared. Your Mister Atoz did not prepare me in any way.
JUDGE: Then you must get back at once! If you were not transformed, you can only survive for a few hours here in the past. Come. Hurry. Hurry.

Whatever Atoz did had to be completed by the machine. Which didn't happen.

That's actually a suspense point in the struggle with that cool flashing sequence that made me giddy as a kid.

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[Maurice]

I find it chilling that Mr. Atoz tried to wheel Kirk through the portal with no preparation, and we know Kirk had none because he didn't die by staying in the present.

Sure he did. He wasn't sending Kirk to die.
[…]
KIRK: Prepared? I was not prepared. Your Mister Atoz did not prepare me in any way.
JUDGE: Then you must get back at once! If you were not transformed, you can only survive for a few hours here in the past. Come. Hurry. Hurry.

I'm confused by this exchange, so maybe I'm misapprehending your point.

Does being "prepared" involve settings Atoz has to switch on that "transforms" the person when they pass through, or is it something done to you just before you enter?

 

[Denise]

It seems there are two different mechanisms. One is the atavachron. Then there's the portal itself.

 

[Uxi]

Chekov: Sir, some creatures can generate and control energy with no harm to themselves: The electric eel on Earth, the giant dry worm of Antos 4, the fluffy...

Dr. McCoy: [interrupting] Not the whole encyclopedia, Chekov.

Chekov: The captain requires complete information.

Dr. McCoy: Spock's contaminating this boy, Jim.

Capt. Kirk: Are you suggesting that he, Apollo, taps a flow of energy and channels it through his body?

Chekov: That would seem most likely, sir.

Capt. Kirk: Mr. Chekov, I think you've earned your pay for the week.