Janeway - worthy TREK Captain or not?

[Stag]

Hi all, somewhat new to the VOY board although I post here every now and again.

I post this thread because of two reasons. One, there has been a severe lack of TREK on TV so I have started watching VOY again after sitting through though the initial airing of the 7 seasons way back when. Back then I watched VOY because it was TREK and there was nothing else on. I did not like it much and I did not care for the number of small errors made that rove me crazy - unlimited number of shuttles, photon torpedoes and the inconsistent rank given to some main characters. But I have matured and while irritating, I can look past it and enjoy the show.

The second reason is that I have become to appreciate Captain Janeway more and more, especially as I get into the later seasons. In fact of the TREK Captains she is probably in the top 3 for me now, moving up from 5th. I'm old school, so Kirk is and always will be my number one, Sisko second because he is the most realistic human portrayal of the modern TREK Captains and third Janeway.

Why Janeway??? I began to think about her character. She is at her core not a leader - she did not leave the academy hoping to be Captain of a heavy cruiser on the border of klingon/romulan space hoping for a skirmish. No, she was a scientist. Yes, she developed her leadership skills as her career progressed, but she was always a scientist at her core. Hence her posting to Voyager, not a frontline battleship but a vessel equipped for science first.

If I view Janeway through this filter, I find her to be a caring and dynamic leader. She knows her ship's systems and her people and how to manage both to get the best performance.

Now part of people's thoughts regarding Janeway can be blamed on the at times uneven writing/behavior of her character (see Equinox) and whether or not you can tolerate Kate Mulgrew. After flip flopping on this issue, I can live with Mulgrew and her portrayal of Janeway. There were far worse choices out there. She demonstrated a sincerity and caring/humanity not shown by the other. Is this due to her gender? I don't know? I would like to think that the role could have been played and written for a male exactly the same

So you can keep Picard - the pompous ass who's character, to me, does not really stand the test of time and you can keep Archer who should really have been more Kirk like then he was simply to reflect the era he was from.

Kirk, Janeway and Sisko...those are who are going to Captain my first three Starships in my fleet.

Your thoughts? What are the general thoughts about Janeway in VOY fandom?

 

[Mrs Paris]

who's rank was inconsistant? The only mistake was with Tuvok in the first few episodes

and with the number of shuttles, it's pretty clear that they have the capability to build shuttles from scratch

 

[kimc]

Welcome to the Voyager board Stag.

I agree with you that Janeway is a character that can easily grow on you. I started out in Trek as a TNG fan which got me into TOS which quickly became my favorite. Since I really liked Spock I was excited to hear about a new Vulcan character (finally!) in Voyager and started watching for that reason.

While I still love Tuvok (Tuvie) Janeway eventually became my favorite character on the show. She has a combination of toughness and kindness that is fun to watch, imo.

Anyway, great idea for a thread. It will be interesting to see some more opinions.

 

[Lynx]

Janeway is actually my favorite.

OK, it's a close call between her and Picard but Janeway is in the lead.

I like the way she seems to care about every single crewmember on the ship and that she's ready to sacrifice herself for each one of them, something she really did show in "Sacred Ground".

She's a bit irrational sometimes but I guess it may have something to do with the situation Voyager ended up in.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Janeway is way better than Picard. She didn't need the Federation behind her helping her in every situation

 

[Stag]

Welcome to the Voyager board Stag.

I agree with you that Janeway is a character that can easily grow on you. I started out in Trek as a TNG fan which got me into TOS which quickly became my favorite. Since I really liked Spock I was excited to hear about a new Vulcan character (finally!) in Voyager and started watching for that reason.

While I still love Tuvok (Tuvie) Janeway eventually became my favorite character on the show. She has a combination of toughness and kindness that is fun to watch, imo.

Anyway, great idea for a thread. It will be interesting to see some more opinions.

Thanks for the welcome!!

You know, I had totally forgotten about the runup to VOY talking about the first regular Vulcan since Spock. Then when I saw Tim Russ in make up I was like WTF?!?!? Vulcan's are only one skin tone - green tinted caucasian. (OK, I was a dumb ass back then) Then I'd watch his performance and I'd be the worst critic "What is he doing??? Spock would not do that!!" Then it hit me at some point - this is the first full blooded Vulcan we have seen on a regular basis - more Sarek then Spock - I think that was awesome in that it not only proved Vulcan was diverse, but also that it prevented the casual fan from looking at the pointed ears and saying "Hey, is that the Dr. spock guy". That's when I really started to enjoy Tuvok's character. OK, maybe he could have cut Neelix some slack every now and again, but Tim Russ broke new ground with Tuvok every time his character faced an issue, a challenge, had a conversation with a different species. He was showing us what a full blooded Vulcan was.

I don't think he liked being called "Tuvie" though. I heard he preferred "Vokie".

who's rank was inconsistant? The only mistake was with Tuvok in the first few episodes

and with the number of shuttles, it's pretty clear that they have the capability to build shuttles from scratch

With regards to the shuttles, I would argue that point since they always seemed to be rationing out resources, although one could say that the reason for the rationing was the main resources were going to shuttle construction.

The thing about the rank that absolutely drives me crazy is that none of the people involved in the production of the show were newbies to TREK. Most of the production team were experienced either with TNG or DS9 so they were familiar with the costuming and those little details.

The Tuvok issue just gets under my skin because it is so obvious - 'X' rank = 'X' pips. One would think someone would recognize it pretty quickly in looking at the dailies. It is that lack of care and attention to detail that eventually manifested itself through out the TREK Paramount team resulting in the eventual cancellation of Enterprise and Berman/Braga handing over the reigns of TREK. But I digress...

Janeway is actually my favorite.
...I like the way she seems to care about every single crewmember on the ship and that she's ready to sacrifice herself for each one of them, something she really did show in "Sacred Ground"...

Agreed, and that is the one thing I have come to recognize. She is not near any starbases or outposts, there are no crew rotations, her crew is her crew and they will be until they get home or each one of them die off. They become more family then crew. Janeway's attitude - let's stay by the book, but let's recognize our situation here too. I.e. Integrating the Maquis and Delta quadrant denizens into the crew (i.e. Neelix/Kes). That plus you get the sense as you say, she really does care about the crew members - whatever the rank.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

Janeway is my number one captain in Trek, just barely edging out Sisko.

 

[Stag]

OMG!!! I can't believe I forgot the one great thing about Janeway!!! She is human!!! OK, before all of you post something along the lines of DUH!! Hear me out...

She is tired in the morning, she is non-functional at times without coffee. She has flaws. I love the fact that she needs her coffee in the morning. That is a normal person!

 

[anais]

She is tired in the morning, she is non-functional at times without coffee. She has flaws. I love the fact that she needs her coffee in the morning. That is a normal person!

Her flaws are what I like most about the character.

 

[Deckerd]

I remember an interview with Kate Mulgrew when she said that women had got in touch with her to say that they had pursued scientific/aeronautical/space related careers after watching her as captain of Voyager. Her work on this show was inspirational on many levels.

 

[Mrs Paris]

She is tired in the morning, she is non-functional at times without coffee. She has flaws. I love the fact that she needs her coffee in the morning. That is a normal person!

Her flaws are what I like most about the character.

they're not even flaws, they're human touches

 

[anais]

She is tired in the morning, she is non-functional at times without coffee. She has flaws. I love the fact that she needs her coffee in the morning. That is a normal person!

Her flaws are what I like most about the character.

they're not even flaws, they're human touches

Ok, sorry I didn't make it clear. I never said coffee or morning grumpiness were flaws, if that's what you're implying by they. To me, she does have flaws, like all of us, she made mistakes. It makes her characterization real.

 

[Stag]

^Agreed. When I said flaws it was in reference to primarily to the way the characters were portrayed in TNG. Everyone lacked prejudice, everyone lacked greed, everyone set personal ambition aside - just a unrealistic portrayal of the human condition. At least as we know it.

Janeway was more of a realistic character. Struggling with tough decisions, wounded emotionally when someone was killed, got tired, got annoyed. Her character was far more real then any of the TNG bunch. At least to me.

So yes I used the word flaw, but in a good way

 

[kimc]

I don't think he liked being called "Tuvie" though. I heard he preferred "Vokie".

Is that logical?

She is tired in the morning, she is non-functional at times without coffee. She has flaws. I love the fact that she needs her coffee in the morning. That is a normal person!

My kind of people!

 

[Stag]

I don't think he liked being called "Tuvie" though. I heard he preferred "Vokie".

Is that logical?

Oh heck no I should have said...

V'okie

...I forget to spell it in Vulcan.

 

[Malcom]

I think Picard, Sisko and Janeway are completely believable.

 

[Red Ranger]

who's rank was inconsistant? The only mistake was with Tuvok in the first few episodes

and with the number of shuttles, it's pretty clear that they have the capability to build shuttles from scratch

Regarding ranks, in addition to the more obvious Tuvok error, there was confusion about Tom's, B'Elanna's, even Chakotay's ranks as well.

In the first season, Tom clearly has two solid pips, denoting full lieutenant, then inexplicably, he's down to lieutenant, junior grade. They did explain why he was busted down to ensign, although he regained his former rank later.

While not explictly stated, B'Elanna has the provisional rank of lt., j.g., yet she's put in charge of engineering over Lt. Carey. You'd think that if Janeway was going to give a provisional rank for the head of a section, she'd make that person a full lieutenant at least.

And there's the matter of Chakotay. He's always referred to as Commander Chakotay, although he has the provisional rank of lieutenant commander. True, people of that rank are often referred to as just commander, but there's never an official mention that he's a lt. cmdr.

As for Janeway as captain, I like her, too. It took me a while to get used to her somewhat grating voice, but I certainly wouldn't mind being trapped in the Delta Quadrant a few decades with Janeway!

Red Ranger

 

[Mrs Paris]

who's rank was inconsistant? The only mistake was with Tuvok in the first few episodes

and with the number of shuttles, it's pretty clear that they have the capability to build shuttles from scratch

Regarding ranks, in addition to the more obvious Tuvok error, there was confusion about Tom's, B'Elanna's, even Chakotay's ranks as well.

In the first season, Tom clearly has two solid pips, denoting full lieutenant, then inexplicably, he's down to lieutenant, junior grade. They did explain why he was busted down to ensign, although he regained his former rank later.

While not explictly stated, B'Elanna has the provisional rank of lt., j.g., yet she's put in charge of engineering over Lt. Carey. You'd think that if Janeway was going to give a provisional rank for the head of a section, she'd make that person a full lieutenant at least.

And there's the matter of Chakotay. He's always referred to as Commander Chakotay, although he has the provisional rank of lieutenant commander. True, people of that rank are often referred to as just commander, but there's never an official mention that he's a lt. cmdr.

no, Chakotay's rank bars were always that of a full commander

As for Janeway as captain, I like her, too. It took me a while to get used to her somewhat grating voice, but I certainly wouldn't mind being trapped in the Delta Quadrant a few decades with Janeway!

Red Ranger

 

[Red Ranger]

no, Chakotay's rank bars were always that of a full commander

Think you're wrong there, Mrs. Paris. If you look carefully, one of his "stripes" is dark, while the other two are solid -- denoting a lt. cmdr. I'll see if I can find a pic and post it. Or if you can find some pics where it shows Chakotay has three solild stripes, I'll acknowledge you're right! Chakotay being a lt. cmdr. would be consistent with the rank structure of the first exec -- he was a lt. cmdr. -- RR

 

[Stag]

checked on this because I was not sure myself, but Chakotay is listed as a Lieutenant Commander on both Startrek.com and Memory Alpha.

Here:
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/VOY/cast/69080.html

and here:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Chakotay

It is common usage in the Navy (US anyway) to refer to a Commander whether full or Lieutenant as a Commander as a courtesy. Just as a Full Lieutenant or Lieutenant Junior Grade are all called Lieutenant.

As far as Chakotay's rank pin...

It appears that he wears the two solid bars and one black bar inside the oval in most of the pictures I find. Couldn't find one with the 3 solid bars in the oval that would be comparable to the 3 solid pips of a full commander.