Yesterday's Enterprise - but with the NCC 1701-A instead of the C

[MurphyCooper]

What if instead of the Enterprise C saving a Klingon ship from the Romulans, it was the Enterprise A under Kirk that saved the Klingon ship, and went through the rift, and the Klingon-Federation Alliance happened far sooner than in the Prime Timeline? How would this have changed things? How would it have played out in real life, with the TOS Crew being featured in a pivotal episode of TNG?

How would the legacy of the original Enterprise crew be different if they were "lost" in a battle with the Romulans, being pivotal in mending ties with the Klingons, etc?

How would Sila have worked? Maybe she could have been Kirk's Daughter instead?

 

[Dukhat]

I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but before I speculate, we have to be realistic. They would not have used Kirk & Co. and the Enterprise-A, because they were still making movies with them and they would not have wanted to reveal anyone’s fate prematurely. Plus, they would not have wanted Shatner and the others to overshadow the main cast, especially for a story as dramatic as this one.

But I will tell you an alternate scenario that might have happened because of the producers’ reticence about having to pay for a new studio model: they would have used the Excelsior model and either 1) modified it somehow into the C, or, more likely, 2) changed the story so that the ship was the B, to match the display models in the ready room. But other than that, things would have stayed exactly the same.

 

[MurphyCooper]

I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but before I speculate, we have to be realistic. They would not have used Kirk & Co. and the Enterprise-A, because they were still making movies with them and they would not have wanted to reveal anyone’s fate prematurely. Plus, they would not have wanted Shatner and the others to overshadow the main cast, especially for a story as dramatic as this one.

But I will tell you an alternate scenario that might have happened because of the producers’ reticence about having to pay for a new studio model: they would have used the Excelsior model and either 1) modified it somehow into the C, or, more likely, 2) changed the story so that the ship was the B, to match the display models in the ready room. But other than that, things would have stayed exactly the same.

Well, that is a fair opinion to have, but my question lies more in terms of in-universe, if it was the Enterprise A, with the TOS crew as it was in the movies, how that would affect things in Universe.

 

[Dukhat]

I think most fans would not have wanted the TOS crew to die the way the Ent-C crew did. With that said, I’m not quite sure how the story would have played out. Who would Yar have been involved with on an emotional level like Castillo? Would Kirk have taken the Garrett role and be unceremoniously killed by a shard of metal stuck in his forehead? What roles would Spock, Sulu, Chekov, Uhura, and Scotty have had, with the primary focus on just Garrett and Castillo in the original?

 

[MurphyCooper]

I think most fans would not have wanted the TOS crew to die the way the Ent-C crew did. With that said, I’m not quite sure how the story would have played out. Who would Yar have been involved with on an emotional level like Castillo? Would Kirk have taken the Garrett role and be unceremoniously killed by a shard of metal stuck in his forehead? What roles would Spock, Sulu, Chekov, Uhura, and Scotty have had, with the primary focus on just Garrett and Castillo in the original?

Kirk would have replaced Garret, but that doesn't mean that they should have had to been killed the same way.

 

[Saul]

I think there was some regret among producers that they didn't keep this idea for a movie later on down the road. I don't think it would have worked on a TV budget but on a movie budget it would have been great and a perfect way to crossover crews and give the Enterprise A a fitting send off. The only problem is they might not have ended the same way since McCoy is still around in TNG and future episodes had Spock and Scotty. It would probably work better with just Kirk going back with the Enterprise A and thus answering the big mystery of his absence in TNG.

 

[Phoenix219]

I think the best way of doing it without killing the TOS cast would have been to have the rift take them from the events of The Undiscovered Country, on the way to rescue the Federation President. If it was a movie, they could have pulled a "back to the future 2" and had both crews running around during the events of the Undiscovered Country. If it was a TNG episode, the action would rely on having to get out of a 24th century battle in order to return them to the past in time. Since neither group would know for sure if saving the President happens/works/matters, the in-episode suspense and ethics debates would still apply.

 

[somebuddyX]

I feel like with the premise asking about if the Federation-Klingon Alliance had happened sooner in the timeline it wouldn't really change anything in TNG. I don't think in TNG it matters much when the alliance happened, just that it happened.
I've always been against this idea of subbing the Enterprise-A in for the Enterprise-C because if Kirk and Picard were to meet it should be the normal versions not some alternate timeline. Like I'd want Kirk to meet Worf and have that kind of reaction in the scope of some normal meetup.

 

[Tomalak]

I've thought about this in the past. Ron Moore said that it should have been the first TNG movie, but they obviously weren't thinking that far ahead in 1989, when the TOS cast were still making films. I think Tarantino made the same observation, so it's a very fair question for a thread.

The basic premise would remain, but with significant changes. Firstly, Kirk doesn't die mid-film. The central dilemma is asking him to sacrifice the lives of his crew. BUT as others have noted, you can't have the rest of the TOS cast.

But that's fine because 14 regular characters would be far too unwieldy. So instead you just have Kirk as an observer on the Enterprise-A in its role as a training ship of young, innocent cadets.

You don't bother with Yar. Instead there's a lead female cadet who we come to admire, who forms a relationship with one of the TNG crew instead of the Yar/Castillo dynamic. Riker, I guess. It's the cadet who dies in place of Garrett, giving Kirk the nudge he needs to make the decision that they have to go back, even at the cost of all of their lives.

Obviously Worf becomes an antagonist, perhaps in a subplot where we learn that he's not a brutal warrior, but a man of honour too. I guess he overthrows the evil Klingon general, played by Malcolm McDowell.

You probably have a side-quest that gives Picard and Kirk a chance to work together to achieve some goal and overcome their initial antagonism, which could tie into the Worf thing.

I would make the TNG cast more like their regular versions than YE does. Picard should still be ultimately idealistic, he just needs Kirk to reawaken that within him.

OR you just have some handwave bullshit that our Ent-D is shielded from any changes, and therefore Worf is present and correct in the crew.

That's just some thoughts. But I'm no writer. I'm sure it would have been doable, it's just by the time they got there it had been done.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Who would Yar have been involved with on an emotional level like Castillo?

The affects and Kirk and crew may have led to Yar never joining the Federation, or being unable and eventually meta sad fate on her planet.

 

[Dukhat]

The affects and Kirk and crew may have led to Yar never joining the Federation, or being unable and eventually meta sad fate on her planet.

The problem with that scenario is that YE is pretty much all about Tasha Yar. She’s the focal point of the entire story, so removing that element changes a main plot point of the episode. (Granted, the point was having the Ent-C go back and sacrifice itself for the greater good, but it’s also about Yar having a more meaningful death than what she originally had.)

 

[Dukhat]

You don't bother with Yar. Instead there's a lead female cadet who we come to admire, who forms a relationship with one of the TNG crew instead of the Yar/Castillo dynamic. Riker, I guess. It's the cadet who dies in place of Garrett, giving Kirk the nudge he needs to make the decision that they have to go back, even at the cost of all of their lives.

But the audience isn’t invested in some brand-new character who is clearly just a redshirt plot device. That wasn’t the sacrifice that the writers were going for. Yar was the far more logical choice, and the fact that her ultimate fate was left ambiguous (until Sela came along) worked perfectly for the ‘second chance’ scenario.

Plus, with the conceit of having Kirk be part of the story, some new character would be totally overshadowed by Shatner being there. You don’t get Shat for a story and then place your focus on some female cadet we’ve never met before.

 

[David cgc]

I feel like any reimagining of "Yesterday's Enterprise" as a TOS/TNG crossover would have to have a very different plot and structure than the episode as it turned out. The writers' themselves have said that it's a miracle the episode turned out as well as it did, with everyone throwing in rewrites on top of each other at the last minute. Beyond "Enterprise time-travel team-up," I don't know how much of anything would've survived in the alternate universe where Michael Pillar decided the concept was too juicy to burn on an episode and banked it for a transitional movie from the TOS to TNG crew. Plenty of key elements in the episode weren't from the original spec-script (the alternate timeline caused by the -C's disappearance, Yar's presence, Guinan's sixth sense).

 

[tharpdevenport]

The problem with that scenario is that YE is pretty much all about Tasha Yar. She’s the focal point of the entire story, so removing that element changes a main plot point of the episode. (Granted, the point was having the Ent-C go back and sacrifice itself for the greater good, but it’s also about Yar having a more meaningful death than what she originally had.)

It is because she's in it, but she doesn't have to be. Now it can be about somebody else or no focus on particular person.

 

[Dukhat]

I think the episode worked beautifully just the way it was. Literally the only nitpick I have (and it’s needlessly pedantic, trust me) is that the loss of the C in 2344 and the launch of the D in 2363 created a 19 year gap in time where there wasn’t an Enterprise in service, which didn’t really sit well with me.

 

[Dukhat]

It is because she's in it, but she doesn't have to be. Now it can be about somebody else or no focus on particular person.

That’s 50% of the whole point of the episode that’s now lost.

 

[Tomalak]

But the audience isn’t invested in some brand-new character who is clearly just a redshirt plot device. That wasn’t the sacrifice that the writers were going for. Yar was the far more logical choice, and the fact that her ultimate fate was left ambiguous (until Sela came along) worked perfectly for the ‘second chance’ scenario.

Plus, with the conceit of having Kirk be part of the story, some new character would be totally overshadowed by Shatner being there. You don’t get Shat for a story and then place your focus on some female cadet we’ve never met before.

I don't know, plenty of Star Trek films have a guest female lead - pretty much all of them except for maybe TFF, GEN and NEM. I don't believe it's beyond the wit of a good writer to introduce a new supporting character who gives Kirk and the TNG crew someone to play off.

I really don't agree that a film audience couldn't become invested in a new character who dies in the middle of the film. Ilia was pretty good.

The main issue with Yar is that Denise Crosby isn't a particularly good actress and couldn't carry the main role in a film. Most of her plot devices and character beats would move to Kirk, because he would need to be the focal point of the story.

The obvious thing to do would be to make the new character important to Kirk - a protégé, or lover. The latter would be very on-brand for ole' Jimmy T.

But I'm not suggesting for a minute that my vague thoughts knocked off in ten minutes are as good as YE! Just some suggestions about how the story could be adapted to a feature starring William Shatner alongside the TNG crew instead of GEN.

I think the episode worked beautifully just the way it was. Literally the only nitpick I have (and it’s needlessly pedantic, trust me) is that the loss of the C in 2344 and the launch of the D in 2363 created a 19 year gap in time where there wasn’t an Enterprise in service, which didn’t really sit well with me.

Absolutely agreed, it's a flawless episode and I wouldn't change it. This is just an entertaining thought experiment.

 

[Dukhat]

I think the biggest challenge in this hypothetical scenario would be figuring out an explanation as to why Kirk would be the only member of the TOS cast to end up on the Ent-A when it goes forward in time. Especially if the Ent-A was being attacked by Romulans before it disappeared.

 

[Tomalak]

I think the biggest challenge in this hypothetical scenario would be figuring out an explanation as to why Kirk would be the only member of the TOS cast to end up on the Ent-A when it goes forward in time. Especially if the Ent-A was being attacked by Romulans before it disappeared.

Agreed. You could simply do exactly what GEN did, and have it be a mission of the Ent-B (not necessarily her maiden voyage), with Kirk along in an advisory capacity. Just Kirk. No further explanation required.

That gives you a few opportunities for character beats. You probably start the film with a prologue introducing Kirk and the battle. The captain is killed on the bridge, Kirk takes command, they fight valiantly, there's that flash of light and... cut to titles. Pick up on the Ent-D and go from there.

And then the female lead to play off Kirk could even be Demora Sulu, or similar.

 

[tharpdevenport]

That’s 50% of the whole point of the episode that’s now lost.

Only from a Tasha Yar stand point. Again, the thread starter's premise then my comments that such a premise may mean Tasha never joined Starfleet, combined means the episode would have to have been different. Outcomes and the point of the episode would be different. Yar is not the end-all be-all of a reformulating an episode's idea for fan speculation.