Kobayashi Maru

[Farscape One]

Really, doctor....



And as they discussed earlier...

[Officer's mess]



Here even Spock is caught, as he had retorted to McCoy in Bread and Circuses....


So Spock's objections to Khan, over the lack of freedom under his reign, were exposed as somewhat anachronistic against the context of a 2Oth century Roman Empire.

But Kirk presses on....



Then after Kirk confines Khan to his quarters....

[Khan's quarters]



So Khan shows his vision, after taking the Enterprise....


So Khan believed that humanity had failed, and sought to save it... but when nobody would follow him, he learned that man had changed in other ways....


And so at the end, Khan chose isolation, over integration in a populist Utopia.

Of course this flies over most heads.

TOS was never any kind of utopia. Was it better than the real world at the time of production? Certainly. But most definitely wasn't an idyllic landscape.

And Khan didn't choose isolation. It was his sentence to be put on Ceti Alpha V, since Kirk himself said in his log entry that it would be a waste to try to 'rehabilitate' him. Kirk's line of taming a world instead of a continent was him challenging Khan to look at his sentence as giving him basically what he wanted, rather than an actual question like, "Do you want to go there?"

 

[BillJ]

But not yourself.

Not through college. Never had any interest.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Khan and his ilk were authoritarian fascists and were clearly coded that way. It doesn’t matter if he “made the trains run on time.” At the end of the day he used violence and torture to get what he wanted. Kirk and company spend the episode stripping away his veneer of false civility to show the thug underneath.

 

[Maurice]

Really, doctor....


<snip>

When you have the production memos in front of you and know what the staff was thinking, let me know. I'll wait.

 

[TomEvans]

TOS was never any kind of utopia. Was it better than the real world at the time of production? Certainly. But most definitely wasn't an idyllic landscape.

It was a populist world where supreme dictators were defeated by civil disobedience, which was the episode moral.

It was definitely a Utopia compared to an uninhabited Earthlike planet.

And Khan didn't choose isolation. It was his sentence to be put on Ceti Alpha V, since Kirk himself said in his log entry that it would be a waste to try to 'rehabilitate' him.

OH God...

Captain's Log. Stardate 3143.3. Control of the Enterprise has been regained. I wish my next decisions were no more difficult. Khan and his people. What a waste to put them in a reorientation centre.
And what do I do about McGivers?

So Kirk didnt want to sentence Khan and his crew, because it would be a waste of their potential. He knew that Khan had learned his lesson, that nobody would follow him anymore, from his experience when he gained control of the Enterprise... and NOBODY from Earth would follow him, even his retro collaborator.

[Briefing room]

(The senior staff are in dress uniform again.)
UHURA: Record tapes engaged and ready, Captain.
KIRK: This hearing is now in session. Under the authority vested in me by Starfleet Command, I declare all charges and s455pecifications in this matter have been dropped.
MCCOY: Jim. Agreed you have the authority

So Kirk dropped all charges, and so Khan and his crew were free to go where they wished.

KIRK: Mister Spock, our heading takes us near the Ceti Alpha star system.
SPOCK: Quite correct, Captain. Planet number five there is habitable, although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable.
KIRK: But no more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning. Those men went on to tame a continent, Mister Khan. Can you tame a world?
KHAN: Have you ever read Milton, Captain?
KIRK: Yes. I understand. Lieutenant Marla McGivers. Given a choice of court martial or accompanying them there.
KHAN: (gazing into her eyes) It will be difficult. A struggle at first even to stay alive, to find food.
MARLA: I'll go with him, sir.
KHAN: A superior woman. I will take her. And I've gotten something else I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build.
KIRK: This hearing is closed.
(Khan and McGivers are escorted out.)
SCOTT: It's a shame for a good Scotsman to admit it, but I'm not up on Milton.
KIRK: The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit. 'It is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.'

As Khan said, he left Earth in the first place because he wanted a world to rule, not a populist galaxy to serve.... when he became Earths first interstellar pioneer, boldly going where no man had gone before.
And so of all people, Kirk understood this more than anyone.
So he granted Khan his original wish. A world to win, an empire to build.

There was no SENTENCE. It was just a moral of populism vs. Social Darwinism, vs. Khans statement...

Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed.

But he was wrong... man had changed, just not by his way of thinking.

And that was the moral of the episode, i.e. the subversion of Nietzsche.

 

[TomEvans]

Khan and his ilk were authoritarian fascists and were clearly coded that way. It doesn’t matter if he “made the trains run on time.” At the end of the day he used violence and torture to get what he wanted. Kirk and company spend the episode stripping away his veneer of false civility to show the thug underneath.

Okay Voltron.

 

[fireproof78]

Khan and his ilk were authoritarian fascists and were clearly coded that way. It doesn’t matter if he “made the trains run on time.” At the end of the day he used violence and torture to get what he wanted. Kirk and company spend the episode stripping away his veneer of false civility to show the thug underneath.

Definitely.

There was nothing to admire by the end.

 

[TomEvans]

Definitely.

There was nothing to admire by the end.

Not smaller minds.

 

[Maurice]

To my way of thinking, what little moral there is in the episode, such as it is, is about inherent nature. Khan is the “It’s my nature” scorpion in the modern fable, often called “The Scorpion and the Frog/Turtle/whatever.” Kirk is understanding enough to decide it's better to give these people a real—but safely removed—challenge rather than try to force them to be something they're not.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Really, doctor....



And as they discussed earlier...

[Officer's mess]



Here even Spock is caught, as he had retorted to McCoy in Bread and Circuses....


So Spock's objections to Khan, over the lack of freedom under his reign, were exposed as somewhat anachronistic against the context of a 2Oth century Roman Empire.

But Kirk presses on....



Then after Kirk confines Khan to his quarters....

[Khan's quarters]



So Khan shows his vision, after taking the Enterprise....


So Khan believed that humanity had failed, and sought to save it... but when nobody would follow him, he learned that man had changed in other ways....


And so at the end, Khan chose isolation, over integration in a populist Utopia.

Of course this flies over most heads.

There's not a single word of dialog that supports the contention that any of the characters Kirk, Spock, McCoy, or Scott regarded Khan as either benevolent or wise, much less any data there that supports the contention that Khan was posited to be either benevolent or wise by anyone making the show. On the contrary, those characters' use of words like tyrant and tyranny support the contention that they thought otherwise.

 

[Farscape One]

It was a populist world where supreme dictators were defeated by civil disobedience, which was the episode moral.

It was definitely a Utopia compared to an uninhabited Earthlike planet.


OH God...


So Kirk didnt want to sentence Khan and his crew, because it would be a waste of their potential. He knew that Khan had learned his lesson, that nobody would follow him anymore, from his experience when he gained control of the Enterprise... and NOBODY from Earth would follow him, even his retro collaborator.



So Kirk dropped all charges, and so Khan and his crew were free to go where they wished.


As Khan said, he left Earth in the first place because he wanted a world to rule, not a populist galaxy to serve.... when he became Earths first interstellar pioneer, boldly going where no man had gone before.
And so of all people, Kirk understood this more than anyone.
So he granted Khan his original wish. A world to win, an empire to build.

There was no SENTENCE. It was just a moral of populism vs. Social Darwinism, vs. Khans statement...


But he was wrong... man had changed, just not by his way of thinking.

And that was the moral of the episode, i.e. the subversion of Nietzsche.

If Khan was free to go where he wished, why didn't he ask Kirk to take him to a different planet? Or even Earth itself?

Kirk removed Khan from the rest of society because he and his followers were dangerous, and rehabilitation centers would be a waste of their time and resources because it would be ineffective against those Augments, and those facilities and their people would be in danger because they likely wouldn't be equipped well enough to deal with Khan and his people.

Kirk didn't do his 'tame a world' bit as an option for Khan.

 

[cultcross]

But not yourself.

Really, doctor....

Of course this flies over most heads

Okay Voltron.

Not smaller minds.

Tone it down - and make your arguments less personal and snarky - or infractions and a thread ban will follow. You can disagree here as much as you want, but personal sniping isn't acceptable. No requirement to comment, just proceed accordingly.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Okay Voltron.

If I knew more about Voltron this might be an effective retort. Giant robot from a cartoon is all I got.

 

[HIjol]

I thought it was this guy...oh, crap...wrong guy...

 

[Maurice]

If I knew more about Voltron this might be an effective retort. Giant robot from a cartoon is all I got.

Not even worth trying to parse.

 

[The Salt Umpire]

Not even worth trying to parse.

Which one's Voltron again?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Which one's Voltron again?

I can never remember if Voltron was the one with the Lions or the Cars.

 

[The Wormhole]

I remember once having a conversation with my uncle, he mentioned gestalts and then realized "but you probably don't know what a gestalt is." I answered "yeah, like those robots which are comprised of many smaller robots which join together." He groaned and said "I'm trying to teach you literary concepts, you're thinking of Voltron."

I think this is related to what we're currently discussing?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I remember once having a conversation with my uncle, he mentioned gestalts and then realized "but you probably don't know what a gestalt is." I answered "yeah, like those robots which are comprised of many smaller robots which join together." He groaned and said "I'm trying to teach you literary concepts, you're thinking of Voltron."

I think this is related to what we're currently discussing?

So, you knew?

 

[Set Harth]

I remember once having a conversation with my uncle, he mentioned gestalts and then realized "but you probably don't know what a gestalt is." I answered "yeah, like those robots which are comprised of many smaller robots which join together." He groaned and said "I'm trying to teach you literary concepts, you're thinking of Voltron."

you schooled him !